WEBVTT 00:00.109 --> 00:03.769 SB IRS TT R data rights and 00:03.779 --> 00:07.710 contracting . The reason why we chose 00:07.719 --> 00:11.130 these two topics for the first webinar 00:11.140 --> 00:14.550 was pretty simple . Um I host a 00:14.560 --> 00:16.290 quarterly round table with the 00:16.299 --> 00:18.510 honorable MS Xu , the undersecretary 00:18.520 --> 00:21.889 for R and E with SBIR firms . 00:22.180 --> 00:24.930 Um And to date , we've had 00:24.940 --> 00:28.219 88 of these webinars . 00:28.389 --> 00:31.450 Um The common theme 00:32.189 --> 00:34.360 that I've noticed were from the 00:34.369 --> 00:36.560 questions from the SP CS that attended 00:36.569 --> 00:40.069 the , the eight the eight webinars 00:40.849 --> 00:44.569 were um how do I protect my I my IP , 00:45.750 --> 00:49.689 how do I protect my software ? And what 00:49.700 --> 00:52.389 do I do when contracting with the 00:52.400 --> 00:55.580 government or a prime contractor ? In 00:55.590 --> 00:59.340 addition , the um 00:59.349 --> 01:02.669 OS D technology Spir transition program 01:02.680 --> 01:06.510 which I also run . Um I 01:06.519 --> 01:09.120 get asked these two questions almost 01:09.129 --> 01:12.500 weekly um companies asking about their 01:12.510 --> 01:16.339 IP rights um getting stolen 01:16.349 --> 01:18.516 or they wanna make sure that they have 01:18.516 --> 01:20.949 them , they're having difficulties um 01:21.400 --> 01:23.456 um contracted with the government or 01:23.456 --> 01:27.160 with the prime . Um So with that 01:27.169 --> 01:29.391 said , our purpose here today is pretty 01:29.391 --> 01:31.502 straight straightforward is that this 01:31.502 --> 01:35.330 webinar is here to educate you on the S 01:35.339 --> 01:38.309 TT RS pr data rights and what you 01:38.319 --> 01:40.430 should know when contracting with the 01:40.430 --> 01:42.097 federal government or a prime 01:42.097 --> 01:44.510 contractor . Again , we only have 90 01:44.519 --> 01:47.129 minutes . So , so we're gonna break 01:47.139 --> 01:49.599 this into two parts . The first session 01:49.949 --> 01:52.800 will be small business , uh small 01:52.809 --> 01:54.920 business data rights , and the second 01:54.920 --> 01:57.610 session will be on spir phase rec 01:57.620 --> 02:01.440 contracting . We've put together what I 02:01.449 --> 02:05.260 call is the dream team for this 02:05.269 --> 02:07.879 conversation uh collectively over 80 02:07.889 --> 02:11.289 years , um what they bring to the table . 02:11.919 --> 02:15.229 Um The first session will be 02:15.440 --> 02:17.639 presented by Mr David Mesker , a 02:17.649 --> 02:21.070 retired lawyer with over 40 years work 02:21.080 --> 02:24.800 with the SB A in drafting the um first 02:24.850 --> 02:28.320 Sbir Policy directive , Chief counsel 02:28.330 --> 02:30.108 of the Small Business Committee 02:30.108 --> 02:32.460 assistant in drafting earlier versions 02:32.470 --> 02:36.210 of the SBIR Act . They specialized in 02:36.220 --> 02:39.139 uh federal contacting and assisting S 02:39.149 --> 02:42.779 PR firms . Davis taught 15 02:42.800 --> 02:45.539 horses in federal contact , federal 02:45.550 --> 02:48.690 contracts . Excuse me , is a former 02:48.699 --> 02:51.089 president of the Board of Contracts Bar 02:51.100 --> 02:54.740 Association . Dave is the 02:54.750 --> 02:58.740 recipient of the Ronald JK Award , 02:59.320 --> 03:02.529 the Association's most prestigious 03:02.539 --> 03:06.059 award . He's a Roland Tibbetts award . 03:06.070 --> 03:10.059 Uh re recipient Dave has given over 03:10.070 --> 03:13.289 275 lectures on SB IRS across the 03:13.300 --> 03:16.490 country . And these accolades go on , 03:16.500 --> 03:19.309 on and on . I just don't have time . Um 03:19.550 --> 03:21.772 But Dave has literally written the book 03:21.772 --> 03:23.839 on , having published , having 03:23.850 --> 03:27.029 published several books , but he's um 03:27.039 --> 03:31.009 um on federal GS a leasing 03:31.020 --> 03:34.559 and concerning spir and how to improve 03:34.570 --> 03:37.889 the S PR program . The second session 03:37.899 --> 03:40.630 will be presented by Mr Thomas Hill A 03:40.639 --> 03:43.149 retired chief contracting officer for 03:43.160 --> 03:45.889 Nava Lakers again with over 40 years 03:45.899 --> 03:49.399 experience . He has a con 03:49.850 --> 03:53.589 he has been a contract negotiator 03:53.600 --> 03:55.929 administrator of contracting officer 03:55.940 --> 03:57.789 with both the public and private 03:57.800 --> 04:01.470 sectors . Um I admitted to the 04:01.479 --> 04:05.470 Pennsylvania bar in 1977 . Tom 04:05.479 --> 04:08.649 has taught business law courses and and 04:08.660 --> 04:11.529 is an adjunct professor at FIT . 04:12.669 --> 04:16.549 He also was awarded the uh Tibbets 04:16.559 --> 04:19.880 Award in 2020 received the Navy 04:19.890 --> 04:23.619 meritorious uh civil service award and 04:23.630 --> 04:26.880 the Navy Superior Performance Award . 04:27.100 --> 04:28.989 Again , I wanna thank you all for 04:28.989 --> 04:30.989 joining and participating with this 04:30.989 --> 04:33.410 webinar and I will , I'll start off 04:33.420 --> 04:36.959 with passing it off to Mr Metzger . 04:38.540 --> 04:40.651 Thank you for the kind words , Matt . 04:40.651 --> 04:43.369 And uh let's get started . We're gonna 04:43.380 --> 04:45.491 talk about small business data rights 04:45.720 --> 04:49.700 and uh this is a fairly complex subject . 04:49.730 --> 04:53.230 So let's get started on the next slide 04:54.339 --> 04:55.989 and next one after that , 05:00.869 --> 05:04.200 let's go to the next slide . We're 05:04.209 --> 05:07.359 gonna cover a variety of uh questions . 05:07.369 --> 05:09.630 Uh what are small business innovation 05:09.640 --> 05:12.380 research , Sbir and small business 05:12.390 --> 05:15.489 technology transfer S TT R data rights . 05:15.609 --> 05:18.600 If I use the word Sbir , it will reply , 05:18.609 --> 05:21.660 it will apply to both . So I won't keep 05:21.670 --> 05:24.059 saying SB IRS TT R unless it's 05:24.070 --> 05:26.459 absolutely necessary , we're gonna go 05:26.470 --> 05:28.581 into what is a government phase three 05:28.581 --> 05:32.140 award because you do get data rights 05:32.149 --> 05:35.019 under it . And so you have to know when 05:35.029 --> 05:37.200 you're entering it and what it means . 05:37.619 --> 05:39.286 Uh We're gonna talk about why 05:39.286 --> 05:41.920 protecting your SB IRS TT R data is 05:41.929 --> 05:45.160 important . We're gonna talk about to 05:45.170 --> 05:47.440 what agencies in the federal government 05:47.450 --> 05:50.350 do . All of these rules apply and we're 05:50.359 --> 05:53.910 also going to go into how and when to 05:53.920 --> 05:57.750 mark your SB IRS TT R data . Next 05:57.760 --> 05:58.260 slide , 06:01.760 --> 06:05.660 the SB IRS TT R data rights 06:05.670 --> 06:07.899 grant , the government , a 06:07.910 --> 06:11.160 non-exclusive royalty free paid up 06:11.170 --> 06:14.880 worldwide license to limited use 06:14.890 --> 06:18.440 of the SB IRS TT R data . So 06:18.450 --> 06:21.510 all of those um kind of are 06:21.839 --> 06:25.239 portions of what the government gets or 06:25.250 --> 06:28.559 or and limits from the data . But the 06:28.570 --> 06:32.119 most important aspect of SB IRS TT R 06:32.130 --> 06:34.700 data is that the government cannot 06:34.709 --> 06:38.540 disclose publicly that data as 06:38.549 --> 06:40.859 long as the protection period remains 06:40.869 --> 06:44.000 in effect . That is unlike any other 06:44.010 --> 06:46.679 data rights uh that apply to other uh 06:46.690 --> 06:50.589 programs . It's unique to SBIR and it 06:50.600 --> 06:53.000 allows the Sbir firm to develop a 06:53.010 --> 06:55.570 market without competing with others 06:55.579 --> 06:57.690 that have gotten a hold of its data . 06:58.070 --> 07:00.940 The data rights protection period is 07:00.950 --> 07:04.529 now 20 years from the date of 07:04.540 --> 07:07.170 award and then it goes 20 years out to 07:07.179 --> 07:09.480 the 20th anniversary . The Small 07:09.489 --> 07:12.320 Business administration eliminated the 07:12.329 --> 07:15.540 rollover provision sometimes called the 07:15.549 --> 07:18.779 extension provision in its uh 07:18.790 --> 07:22.440 2019 final rule 07:22.769 --> 07:25.779 which put in place the 20 year date 07:25.790 --> 07:28.619 instead of others . And that 07:28.630 --> 07:32.269 2019 extension period 07:32.320 --> 07:35.299 is now done as of May 2nd 07:35.309 --> 07:38.799 2019 , we no longer have that extension 07:38.809 --> 07:42.260 period or rollover uh provision uh that 07:42.269 --> 07:45.320 existed under prior uh arrangements . 07:45.700 --> 07:48.350 Therefore , any contract that was 07:48.359 --> 07:51.910 entered into before May 2nd 2019 07:51.940 --> 07:54.790 will live out its five year for 07:54.799 --> 07:57.021 military contracts , its five year data 07:57.029 --> 07:59.720 protection period and then they end , 07:59.730 --> 08:03.149 there's no grandfathering and uh then 08:03.160 --> 08:06.630 new contracts on or after May 2nd 08:06.640 --> 08:10.600 2019 will receive the 20 08:10.609 --> 08:12.829 year protection period . And that's 08:12.839 --> 08:16.410 been true . Uh since May 2nd 2019 , 08:17.339 --> 08:19.395 uh government disclosure of the data 08:19.395 --> 08:22.220 could provide competitors a free entry 08:22.230 --> 08:25.350 into the SB IRS TT R firms market 08:25.359 --> 08:29.119 without any investment uh or effort . 08:29.130 --> 08:31.670 And that's why those that protection , 08:31.679 --> 08:33.735 that non-disclosure protection is so 08:33.735 --> 08:35.123 important . Next slide , 08:40.549 --> 08:42.598 let's talk about the essential 08:42.609 --> 08:46.518 attributes of Sbir and S TT R data . 08:46.848 --> 08:49.109 First of all , they're recorded 08:49.119 --> 08:51.989 information that is they are reduced to 08:51.999 --> 08:55.398 writing . So that can be any source 08:55.408 --> 08:58.758 code , sketches , drawings , formula uh 08:58.768 --> 09:01.439 equations , reports that you submit to 09:01.448 --> 09:04.039 the government technical descriptions 09:04.049 --> 09:07.328 of SB IRS TT R effort and so forth . 09:08.770 --> 09:11.760 The second attribute is that that SB 09:11.770 --> 09:15.099 IRS TT R data must be technical in 09:15.109 --> 09:18.179 nature . So your name of your firm and 09:18.190 --> 09:21.479 your address in the proposal are not SB 09:21.489 --> 09:24.349 IRS TT R data because they're not 09:24.359 --> 09:27.844 technical um general statements about 09:27.854 --> 09:30.484 your innovation , um its applications 09:30.494 --> 09:33.715 and uses are not technical data and 09:33.724 --> 09:37.424 they don't qualify for SB IRS TT R data 09:37.585 --> 09:39.905 uh status because they don't need to 09:39.965 --> 09:40.765 next slide . 09:44.239 --> 09:48.150 The third aspect of SB IRS TT R 09:48.159 --> 09:51.150 data is extremely important . It refers 09:51.159 --> 09:54.150 to data , technical data that are 09:54.159 --> 09:57.440 generated under an Sbir or S TT R 09:57.450 --> 09:59.820 funding agreement and are appropriately 09:59.830 --> 10:02.090 marked . Obviously , the first two 10:02.099 --> 10:04.210 things we talked about , they have to 10:04.210 --> 10:06.266 be reduced to writing . It's uh some 10:06.266 --> 10:08.599 written technical information that are 10:08.609 --> 10:12.450 generated under an Sbir uh S 10:12.460 --> 10:16.299 TT R funding agreement . Uh proprietary 10:16.309 --> 10:18.580 data that the firm developed with its 10:18.590 --> 10:22.510 own private funds is not SB IRS TT R 10:22.520 --> 10:25.090 data , they are separately marked as 10:25.099 --> 10:28.440 such . And that means that staff of the 10:28.450 --> 10:32.010 Sbir firm needs to kind of keep track 10:32.020 --> 10:34.859 of what it developed outside of Sbir 10:34.869 --> 10:38.489 contracts and what is Sbir data so that 10:38.500 --> 10:40.722 they can always tell the government the 10:40.722 --> 10:44.409 difference an important point and some 10:44.419 --> 10:47.940 point of confusion is that hardware is 10:47.950 --> 10:51.549 not SB IRS TT R data for two 10:51.559 --> 10:54.679 reasons . First , let's take a black 10:54.690 --> 10:57.479 box , it's not recorded or written 10:57.489 --> 11:00.520 information . You can look at it , it's 11:00.530 --> 11:03.270 hard but it's not written information . 11:03.500 --> 11:07.130 And secondly , that black box , if 11:07.140 --> 11:09.251 we're looking at it is visible to the 11:09.251 --> 11:12.510 naked eye and therefore it can't be the 11:12.520 --> 11:15.909 subject of a non-disclosure obligation 11:16.020 --> 11:18.669 because we can look at it on the table . 11:18.789 --> 11:22.669 That's why hardware is not subject 11:22.679 --> 11:26.349 to SB IRS TT R data and markings . Uh 11:26.359 --> 11:28.950 The way other written information is 11:30.169 --> 11:34.070 so do not mark hardware as SB IRS 11:34.080 --> 11:36.700 TT R data . That does not mean that 11:36.710 --> 11:39.260 there might be source code , object 11:39.270 --> 11:41.326 code , some kind of code inside that 11:41.330 --> 11:43.979 you want to protect uh in that black 11:43.989 --> 11:46.267 box , then of course , you can do that , 11:46.267 --> 11:48.460 but I'm referring to the hardware box 11:48.469 --> 11:51.799 outside . You don't mark that box or 11:51.809 --> 11:54.250 any hardware uh materials that you 11:54.260 --> 11:57.210 submit software in a black box . Of 11:57.219 --> 11:59.530 course , uh could be subject to the 11:59.539 --> 12:03.109 data rules . Um And if it's uh 12:03.119 --> 12:06.520 you don't need to market if it's 12:06.530 --> 12:08.570 inaccessible and the black box is 12:08.580 --> 12:10.710 integrated , manipulated or otherwise 12:10.719 --> 12:12.890 used . But if you're gonna submit that 12:12.900 --> 12:15.690 code by itself independent of the black 12:15.700 --> 12:17.929 box to the government , then you need 12:17.940 --> 12:20.890 to market it with SB IRS TT R markings . 12:22.440 --> 12:25.789 An important fact is that an agency 12:25.799 --> 12:29.650 receive one seat only for 12:29.659 --> 12:33.390 SB IRS TT R computer program data and 12:33.400 --> 12:36.890 that seat is necessary for it to be 12:36.900 --> 12:40.059 able to evaluate the data . And that's 12:40.070 --> 12:42.237 why it receives that one seat . When a 12:42.237 --> 12:46.150 government agency asks for 10 , 15 , 20 12:46.159 --> 12:49.349 seats of uh data of computer source 12:49.359 --> 12:51.909 code say , um you really shouldn't give 12:51.919 --> 12:54.770 it , you shouldn't uh agree to that and 12:54.780 --> 12:57.250 do all you can to educate them that the , 12:57.260 --> 13:00.669 the law SB IRS TT R law 13:00.840 --> 13:04.489 um prohibits them from asking that next 13:04.500 --> 13:05.950 uh slide . 13:10.219 --> 13:14.109 Now under sbassb IRS TT R 13:14.119 --> 13:17.630 policy directive , currently , any 13:17.640 --> 13:21.309 SB IRS TT R data that you deliver to 13:21.320 --> 13:24.140 the government must be marked with the 13:24.150 --> 13:27.450 appropriate SB IRS TT R data rights 13:27.460 --> 13:29.619 legend . We're gonna talk about that 13:29.630 --> 13:31.979 legend in a little while and describe 13:31.989 --> 13:34.669 it what it is . But it's included in 13:34.679 --> 13:37.520 that policy directive at Appendix one 13:37.640 --> 13:41.380 in the Sbasbir clause that's included 13:41.390 --> 13:43.859 at Appendix one . You can find it there . 13:44.729 --> 13:47.289 Now , since the 19 nineties , the 13:47.299 --> 13:49.460 policy directive has had the force of 13:49.469 --> 13:51.650 law . I've already mentioned that and 13:51.659 --> 13:54.809 as a regulation binds agencies by law , 13:55.760 --> 13:58.038 the non lawyers in the crowd might ask , 13:58.038 --> 14:01.030 how does a policy directive get the 14:01.039 --> 14:03.820 force of law ? I don't get it . Well , 14:03.830 --> 14:07.210 the explanation for that is that in 14:07.250 --> 14:10.520 1982 when I helped the SB A draft , the 14:10.530 --> 14:12.989 original policy directive , it was 14:13.000 --> 14:16.409 exactly that policy . It was not 14:16.419 --> 14:18.929 binding on the agencies . But in 14:18.940 --> 14:22.380 1992 SB A issued the 14:22.390 --> 14:25.049 policy directive personally into what 14:25.059 --> 14:28.840 we call a process of notice and comment 14:28.849 --> 14:31.950 rulemaking . That's the way agencies 14:31.960 --> 14:34.619 make rules and regulations and laws . 14:34.840 --> 14:36.896 It was put in the federal register . 14:36.896 --> 14:39.349 That was the notice . Uh the public 14:39.359 --> 14:43.359 commented on that uh proposal and then 14:43.679 --> 14:45.929 the SB A reviewed the comments , made 14:45.940 --> 14:48.090 some adjustments and issued the final 14:48.099 --> 14:51.760 rule in 1992 as a binding 14:51.770 --> 14:54.320 regulation . That was the uh 14:54.830 --> 14:57.940 rulemaking part of it . So it was 14:57.950 --> 14:59.783 personal to notice and comment , 14:59.783 --> 15:02.400 rulemaking . The way agencies make law 15:02.500 --> 15:05.479 that the a the policy directive became 15:05.700 --> 15:09.299 law in 1992 . And it has been so ever 15:09.309 --> 15:13.289 since agencies cannot change 15:13.299 --> 15:16.789 and they can't circumvent the SB 15:16.799 --> 15:20.400 IRS TT R laws by requesting SBIR 15:20.409 --> 15:23.960 firms to waive SBIR data requirements . 15:24.049 --> 15:26.216 They can't do that . They shouldn't do 15:26.216 --> 15:28.382 that . And if they do do that , um you 15:28.382 --> 15:30.960 need to resist those requests . Uh You 15:30.969 --> 15:33.080 know , if the agency comes to you and 15:33.080 --> 15:35.302 says , could you take away the markings 15:35.302 --> 15:37.358 or not just put them on SB I or data 15:37.358 --> 15:39.685 you submit to us , that's an illegal 15:39.695 --> 15:42.445 request and you need to seek help from 15:42.455 --> 15:45.515 other agency officials higher up who 15:45.526 --> 15:48.306 will get that person in line uh and uh 15:48.315 --> 15:51.466 possibly uh enlist other people , maybe 15:51.541 --> 15:53.882 champion who wants to get your 15:53.892 --> 15:56.502 innovation inserted into the dod uh 15:56.512 --> 15:59.992 mission and uh remind them , teach them 16:00.012 --> 16:03.392 that uh the law does not allow that you 16:03.401 --> 16:06.851 therefore , as Sbir firm uh employees 16:06.861 --> 16:09.192 and owners are actually that's 16:09.202 --> 16:11.952 necessary for you to become teachers . 16:12.382 --> 16:14.326 OK . That's why you're taking this 16:14.326 --> 16:16.351 course . Uh Let's go on next slide 16:18.619 --> 16:22.309 in order to secure SBIR 16:22.320 --> 16:25.140 data rights under a phase three , we 16:25.150 --> 16:27.150 need to know how a phase three is 16:27.159 --> 16:29.729 defined . So let's talk about what is a 16:29.739 --> 16:32.559 phase three award ? A phase three is 16:32.570 --> 16:36.049 defined as an award that derives from 16:36.059 --> 16:39.820 extends or completes prior SB IRS tt R 16:39.830 --> 16:43.570 effort with non SB IRS tt R , 16:43.710 --> 16:46.700 non set aside funds . And 16:47.039 --> 16:49.640 that sometimes creates confusion 16:49.650 --> 16:52.020 because government people believe that 16:52.030 --> 16:54.919 uh an R and D contract is funded with R 16:54.929 --> 16:57.390 and D funds . An O and M contract is 16:57.400 --> 16:59.719 funded with O and M funds . And then 16:59.729 --> 17:03.590 they ask , well , how can an Sbir phase 17:03.599 --> 17:07.280 three be funded with non Sbir funds ? 17:07.800 --> 17:11.349 The non SBIR refers to those set aside 17:11.359 --> 17:14.910 funds that fund phases one and two and 17:14.920 --> 17:18.439 those are set asides about 3% right now 17:18.449 --> 17:22.250 from 11 agencies R and D budgets and 17:22.260 --> 17:24.538 they're set aside for the SBIR program . 17:24.538 --> 17:27.234 They fund only phase one and two for 17:27.244 --> 17:30.145 phase three . The agency has to find 17:30.155 --> 17:32.694 its own funds , procurement funds , onm 17:32.704 --> 17:34.926 funds , construction funds . It doesn't 17:34.926 --> 17:36.982 matter what kind of funds , but it's 17:36.982 --> 17:39.125 got to find its other funds and fund 17:39.135 --> 17:42.074 the phase three with it , that point uh 17:42.084 --> 17:45.349 needs to be understood . Let's talk 17:45.359 --> 17:49.140 about the three parts of this derives 17:49.150 --> 17:51.599 from means that phase three work under 17:51.609 --> 17:54.479 consideration traces back somehow to 17:54.489 --> 17:58.099 prior SB IRS TT R effort and is funded 17:58.109 --> 18:01.319 with non sbir funds , non set aside 18:01.329 --> 18:04.349 funds uh derives them is a very 18:04.359 --> 18:06.650 broad concept . It's probably the 18:06.660 --> 18:09.469 broadest of these three and it is so 18:09.479 --> 18:12.079 broad that in fact , omb originally 18:12.089 --> 18:15.189 when we uh proposed it opposed that 18:15.199 --> 18:17.366 because it said it was way too broad , 18:17.366 --> 18:19.532 too many contracts would be defined as 18:19.532 --> 18:22.270 SBIR under it . So derives from this 18:22.280 --> 18:25.229 one , you wanna look at first extends 18:25.239 --> 18:27.380 means that the proposed phase three 18:27.390 --> 18:29.949 work can be used for an entirely 18:29.959 --> 18:32.219 different application of the technology 18:32.229 --> 18:34.569 than was developed under a prior phase 18:34.579 --> 18:36.801 one , a prior phase two or even a prior 18:36.801 --> 18:38.968 phase three . So you can jump shift to 18:38.969 --> 18:41.239 new applications as long as the 18:41.250 --> 18:43.680 underlying innovation , the underlying 18:43.689 --> 18:46.130 technology developed in prior SB I 18:46.140 --> 18:50.119 efforts is used complete refers 18:50.130 --> 18:52.160 to the process of completing the 18:52.170 --> 18:54.420 innovation process , the innovation 18:54.430 --> 18:57.569 continuum and developing your uh 18:57.579 --> 19:00.520 research effort , your uh research and 19:00.530 --> 19:03.270 development effort into a product uh or 19:03.280 --> 19:06.709 a design notice the or 19:07.280 --> 19:10.420 any one of those three can apply or 19:10.430 --> 19:12.500 means that if any one of those terms 19:12.510 --> 19:14.677 applies , the new requirement can be a 19:14.677 --> 19:18.089 phase three and that's important . So 19:18.319 --> 19:20.989 sometimes all of them apply , sometimes 19:21.000 --> 19:22.833 only one applies . But if anyone 19:22.839 --> 19:25.199 applies , then it can be a phase three . 19:25.209 --> 19:26.079 Next slide , 19:29.969 --> 19:32.760 phase three brings it with it a whole 19:32.770 --> 19:36.099 lot of benefits . If you earn the right 19:36.109 --> 19:38.760 to awards without competition , you 19:38.770 --> 19:42.750 earn Sbir data rights protection , you 19:42.760 --> 19:44.910 get exemption from the SB a size 19:44.920 --> 19:47.160 standards in the phase three . So a 19:47.170 --> 19:49.226 large firm can acquire your firm and 19:49.226 --> 19:53.160 get uh um those uh phase three benefits . 19:53.760 --> 19:56.329 There's no limit on the number funding 19:56.339 --> 19:58.569 duration or time between phase three 19:58.579 --> 20:01.439 awards . Uh the right to a phase three 20:01.449 --> 20:05.260 mandate uh exists . So the Sbir firm 20:05.270 --> 20:07.214 has a right to be awarded a future 20:07.214 --> 20:09.329 phase three award to the greatest 20:09.339 --> 20:13.020 extent practicable . Um That means uh 20:13.030 --> 20:16.949 really only the agency has 20:16.959 --> 20:19.530 the right to ask is that Sbir firms 20:19.540 --> 20:21.651 still in business , still available , 20:21.651 --> 20:23.873 still capable of doing this and willing 20:23.873 --> 20:26.464 to do it . That's what greatest extent 20:26.474 --> 20:30.405 practical means . If the Sbir 20:30.415 --> 20:32.875 firm went out of business um is no 20:32.885 --> 20:35.584 longer as bankrupt , uh then it 20:35.594 --> 20:38.405 wouldn't be practicable to uh award uh 20:38.415 --> 20:40.526 phase three to that firm and it might 20:40.526 --> 20:43.689 have to move on . The phase three 20:43.699 --> 20:45.849 applies to subcontracts . And that is 20:45.859 --> 20:49.020 now set expressly in section four C of 20:49.030 --> 20:52.369 the uh Sbasbir policy directive . 20:52.800 --> 20:55.410 And uh those can be entered into 20:55.420 --> 20:58.479 without competition , the ability to 20:58.489 --> 21:00.489 pursue research , research and 21:00.500 --> 21:02.819 development , services , products , 21:02.829 --> 21:05.849 production or any combination of these 21:05.859 --> 21:08.800 exists for a phase three . For that 21:08.810 --> 21:11.050 last bullet , I would defy anyone to 21:11.060 --> 21:13.390 try and come up with some activity that 21:13.400 --> 21:15.344 the government could describe that 21:15.344 --> 21:17.650 doesn't fit into that . In other words , 21:17.660 --> 21:19.938 a phase three can be used for anything . 21:20.270 --> 21:21.410 OK . Next slide . 21:25.359 --> 21:28.390 Uh if phase three can be made by any 21:28.400 --> 21:31.300 federal agency , even if that agency is 21:31.310 --> 21:34.479 not one of the 11 SBIR participating 21:34.489 --> 21:37.619 program participants . Um So 21:37.859 --> 21:41.310 if uh if a federal agency that is not 21:41.319 --> 21:43.859 one of those 11 wants to issue a phase 21:43.869 --> 21:47.609 three , it can and uh federal 21:47.619 --> 21:49.730 agencies can enter into a phase three 21:49.730 --> 21:52.390 agreement at any time with a phase one 21:52.400 --> 21:55.469 or phase two awardee regardless of the 21:55.479 --> 21:57.535 stage of completion . So even if you 21:57.535 --> 21:59.535 haven't completed your phase one or 21:59.535 --> 22:01.701 your phase two , they can enter into a 22:01.701 --> 22:04.030 phase three with you to uh advance the 22:04.040 --> 22:07.530 research . Uh I will say that 22:08.040 --> 22:11.829 the agencies that are not familiar with 22:11.839 --> 22:15.630 Sbir need to be reminded that it is a 22:15.640 --> 22:18.040 sole source contract and the 22:18.050 --> 22:20.680 justification for that sole source 22:20.689 --> 22:23.219 which always confuses uh government 22:23.229 --> 22:25.396 officials and they always kind of look 22:25.396 --> 22:27.396 at it and it's complicated and they 22:27.396 --> 22:29.618 have to go worldwide and see if anybody 22:29.618 --> 22:31.780 else can use it . No , for Sbir , the 22:31.790 --> 22:34.180 justification for the sole source is 22:34.189 --> 22:37.579 easy . The language for it is included 22:37.589 --> 22:39.645 in section four C again , that's why 22:39.645 --> 22:41.839 you need to keep that policy directive 22:41.849 --> 22:44.319 handy . And it says that whole 22:44.329 --> 22:47.390 justification is if this award uh 22:47.400 --> 22:50.780 derives from uh extends or completes 22:50.790 --> 22:53.390 prior SBIR work and is funded with non 22:53.400 --> 22:56.119 sbir funds , obviously , that's a 22:56.130 --> 22:58.319 definition of a phase three . That's 22:58.329 --> 23:01.699 the justification for it . So um 23:01.709 --> 23:04.380 for non participating agencies , you 23:04.390 --> 23:06.557 might have to remind them of that easy 23:06.557 --> 23:08.557 justification for the sole source . 23:08.557 --> 23:09.557 Next slide , 23:13.000 --> 23:15.449 phase three commercialization uh can be 23:15.459 --> 23:17.630 done for the military for the civilian 23:17.640 --> 23:20.250 or uh agencies or even private sector . 23:20.650 --> 23:24.500 Um SB IRS TT R derived products or 23:24.510 --> 23:27.310 services . Um That's what 23:27.319 --> 23:30.229 commercialization means . And it also 23:30.239 --> 23:32.680 can mean simply continuation of the R 23:32.689 --> 23:36.170 and D process . Increasingly , agency 23:36.180 --> 23:38.199 level rules are requiring 23:38.209 --> 23:40.469 commercialization to a marketable 23:40.479 --> 23:43.660 product as a condition of receiving 23:43.670 --> 23:46.250 more phase ones or phase twos . And 23:46.260 --> 23:48.540 there are dollar limits , uh dollar 23:48.550 --> 23:51.849 requirements um of sales that are 23:51.859 --> 23:54.800 sometimes required uh to get additional 23:54.810 --> 23:56.866 phase one or phase two if you have a 23:56.866 --> 23:59.020 lot of them . Um Additional 23:59.030 --> 24:00.974 considerations regarding the phase 24:00.974 --> 24:04.760 three successor in interest , 24:04.770 --> 24:07.150 firms can qualify for phase three . 24:07.459 --> 24:10.270 What are those a successor in interest 24:10.280 --> 24:12.280 can occur through an acquisition of 24:12.280 --> 24:14.550 your whole firm ? And therefore it gets 24:14.560 --> 24:17.520 to own all of the sbir prior uh 24:17.530 --> 24:19.752 research and therefore , it can get a , 24:19.752 --> 24:22.369 a phase three based on that prior work . 24:22.859 --> 24:26.489 Innovation can lead to uh uh a 24:26.500 --> 24:28.278 qualification for phase three . 24:28.278 --> 24:31.020 Innovation is simply a purchase of a 24:31.030 --> 24:33.699 pending contract . And because there is 24:33.709 --> 24:35.869 a law against uh selling federal 24:35.880 --> 24:38.430 contracts while they're in existence , 24:38.689 --> 24:41.589 the innovation process is set out in 24:41.599 --> 24:45.239 far part 51 and allows you to transfer 24:45.250 --> 24:47.550 a pending contract . And that way a 24:47.560 --> 24:49.479 success or an interest can be uh 24:49.489 --> 24:52.619 created , you can also assign that is 24:52.630 --> 24:56.160 sell um part of your sbir uh data 24:56.170 --> 24:58.719 rights and technology and keep the 24:58.729 --> 25:00.729 other parts . Uh other applications 25:00.729 --> 25:02.951 that you're working on that can lead to 25:02.951 --> 25:06.060 a phase three eligibility for the 25:06.069 --> 25:09.640 purchaser . And I do want to 25:09.650 --> 25:13.000 repeat that the SB IRS TT R Act now has 25:13.010 --> 25:14.843 restrictions and requirements on 25:14.843 --> 25:17.219 commercialization . So you really need 25:17.229 --> 25:20.160 to work hard to get to 25:20.170 --> 25:22.750 commercialization . Next slide . 25:26.160 --> 25:30.000 Now , if pursuing phase three work is 25:30.010 --> 25:31.709 found to be practicable , 25:33.839 --> 25:36.006 we need to go back to the next slide . 25:38.290 --> 25:42.199 Then uh the agencies must uh provide a 25:42.209 --> 25:44.760 non-competitive funding agreement to 25:44.770 --> 25:48.069 that firm . The practicality 25:48.079 --> 25:50.839 really relates to , as I said before is 25:50.849 --> 25:52.682 the firm available , capable and 25:52.689 --> 25:54.745 willing to perform the work ? That's 25:54.745 --> 25:57.078 all it is . It's nothing more than that . 25:57.078 --> 25:59.180 They can't go worldwide and look for 25:59.189 --> 26:02.869 anybody else to do it . And if that 26:02.880 --> 26:05.020 phase three is determined not to be 26:05.030 --> 26:07.670 practical and agency practicable . That 26:07.680 --> 26:10.510 agency has to provide a copy of its 26:10.520 --> 26:12.939 written decision to that effect to the 26:12.949 --> 26:15.170 SB A which can appeal that decision . 26:15.310 --> 26:18.550 OK . Next slide , so you do get a kind 26:18.560 --> 26:20.560 of a right to a phase three award . 26:20.560 --> 26:23.739 Next , next slide , there's 26:23.750 --> 26:27.550 three elements in the SB IRS TT R 26:27.560 --> 26:29.780 data rights legend and these are 26:29.790 --> 26:31.568 important and it's important to 26:31.568 --> 26:33.849 understand the data rights legend . So 26:33.859 --> 26:36.040 you affix it to your data rights 26:36.050 --> 26:38.939 submissions um in 26:39.199 --> 26:41.459 appropriately , that's the term that 26:41.469 --> 26:43.739 the policy directive uh uses but 26:43.750 --> 26:46.000 accurately is the , is the way I would 26:46.010 --> 26:48.410 define it . The three elements are 26:48.420 --> 26:52.180 first the title SB IRS TT R Data 26:52.189 --> 26:54.245 Rights . You need to put that on the 26:54.245 --> 26:56.579 top of your legend . Second part of it 26:56.589 --> 26:59.599 is a five row chart and it has the 26:59.609 --> 27:01.720 funding agreement number that is your 27:01.720 --> 27:04.900 contract number for dod to the award 27:04.910 --> 27:07.077 date . They'll find , you'll find that 27:07.077 --> 27:09.550 on the title page , the date , 20 years 27:09.560 --> 27:11.782 out from the award date . So that's the 27:11.782 --> 27:15.069 20th anniversary and then the awardees 27:15.079 --> 27:17.209 name and the awardees address . Those 27:17.219 --> 27:20.020 are easy . You don't need to include 27:20.030 --> 27:22.086 the outlines of the box , but you do 27:22.089 --> 27:25.859 need to include those words and all the 27:25.869 --> 27:28.530 answers to them . And the third part of 27:28.540 --> 27:31.800 it is a paragraph of text describing 27:31.810 --> 27:34.143 the government's rights and obligations . 27:34.530 --> 27:38.099 Um That text is long and may seem 27:38.109 --> 27:40.920 complicated , but you need to um 27:41.229 --> 27:44.430 duplicate it and replicate it 27:44.469 --> 27:47.300 accurately . Uh don't , don't have 27:47.310 --> 27:49.489 spelling errors or words left out or 27:49.500 --> 27:51.750 commas in the wrong place . Um Pay 27:51.760 --> 27:54.369 attention to it , edit it carefully and 27:54.380 --> 27:56.102 make sure you've replicated it 27:56.109 --> 27:58.109 completely inaccurately . You don't 27:58.109 --> 28:00.331 want the government to take a comma and 28:00.331 --> 28:02.331 say this is an inappropriate legend 28:02.331 --> 28:04.498 because you missed a comma and because 28:04.498 --> 28:06.553 they want to get their hands on your 28:06.553 --> 28:08.665 data , you don't know if they will or 28:08.665 --> 28:09.887 not . OK . Next slide 28:12.770 --> 28:16.199 marking Sbir data refers to the process 28:16.209 --> 28:18.810 of a fixing that three part legend we 28:18.819 --> 28:21.709 just talked about to accurately 28:21.719 --> 28:25.689 completely and in Oh 28:28.380 --> 28:31.599 yeah . Oh oh 28:32.619 --> 28:36.250 for Sbir and the Department of Defense 28:36.260 --> 28:40.229 abandoned its original uh Dr 28:40.239 --> 28:43.770 clause 70 18 . And it agreed 28:43.780 --> 28:46.420 initially to use the Sbas new clause 28:46.430 --> 28:48.550 instead , which includes the legend . 28:48.969 --> 28:52.560 Recently on March 17th 2020 28:52.670 --> 28:56.160 dod reissued its 17 28:56.170 --> 28:59.349 70 18 clause and labeled it 28:59.369 --> 29:00.619 deviation 29:00.630 --> 29:04.510 2020-0007 . 29:04.930 --> 29:07.819 Um And that data rights clause is now 29:07.829 --> 29:10.119 in use and carefully sets out the Sbas 29:10.130 --> 29:13.020 legend . I will say that that uh 29:13.030 --> 29:16.989 deviation also replicates , 29:17.000 --> 29:20.619 recites the Sbassbir 29:20.630 --> 29:23.400 clause , almost word for word . There 29:23.410 --> 29:27.180 are some dod adaptations in it , but 29:27.300 --> 29:31.140 it's largely um a recitation 29:31.150 --> 29:34.770 of the Sbassbir clause . Next slide , 29:39.530 --> 29:42.680 failure to mark inappropriately or mark 29:42.689 --> 29:45.170 inappropriately uh failure to mark or , 29:45.180 --> 29:47.236 or marking something inappropriately 29:47.236 --> 29:49.347 gives the government unlimited rights 29:49.347 --> 29:52.400 in the Sbir data . That means they can 29:52.410 --> 29:54.599 do anything they want with it , 29:54.609 --> 29:57.579 disclose it to a large firm um make the 29:57.589 --> 30:00.219 product themselves and use it . Um 30:00.729 --> 30:02.840 There , there's no limit on what they 30:02.840 --> 30:04.507 can do with your data if it's 30:04.507 --> 30:06.618 inappropriately marked or you fail to 30:06.618 --> 30:10.569 mark it . Um That , that 30:10.869 --> 30:13.479 is important because that's a way you 30:13.489 --> 30:15.378 can give up your data rights even 30:15.378 --> 30:17.600 though you thought you had marked it or 30:17.600 --> 30:19.711 you submit it and failed to mark it . 30:19.890 --> 30:23.640 Now , awards have six months to correct 30:23.650 --> 30:26.949 inappropriate or failed markings . But 30:26.959 --> 30:30.069 please note the government retains 30:30.079 --> 30:32.979 unlimited rights to that data until it 30:32.989 --> 30:35.800 is corrected . So , don't uh 30:36.069 --> 30:39.609 hesitate if you think someone , you or 30:39.619 --> 30:42.709 someone submitted uh Sbir data without 30:42.719 --> 30:45.540 marking it . Don't hesitate to resubmit 30:45.550 --> 30:47.650 it with the marking . Don't wait , 30:47.660 --> 30:50.150 don't ask , get it submitted and then 30:50.160 --> 30:52.327 discuss it with the government but get 30:52.327 --> 30:54.979 it submitted fast uh 30:54.989 --> 30:58.510 appropriately marking the , the uh 30:58.839 --> 31:02.339 document with Sbir data and that turns 31:02.349 --> 31:05.699 the tables completely appropriately 31:05.709 --> 31:08.800 marked sbar data constitute 31:09.150 --> 31:12.089 trade secrets . And that's important 31:12.099 --> 31:15.140 because trade secrets are covered by 31:15.150 --> 31:18.329 the Federal Trade Secrets Act 18 US C 31:18.339 --> 31:21.300 section 19 05 . And I don't wanna start 31:21.310 --> 31:23.609 getting to be the lawyer here , but 31:23.800 --> 31:27.680 that is important because it makes 31:27.689 --> 31:31.180 it a felony for a federal official to 31:31.189 --> 31:34.140 disclose such data punishable by not 31:34.150 --> 31:36.500 more than one year in prison and not to 31:36.510 --> 31:39.510 exceed $100,000 per disclosure , which 31:39.520 --> 31:42.709 comes out of the uh federal official's 31:42.719 --> 31:45.969 own bank account . So you can see that 31:45.979 --> 31:49.699 there is uh a real set of 31:49.709 --> 31:52.729 gnawing teeth behind this uh 31:52.739 --> 31:55.109 non-disclosure obligation on the part 31:55.119 --> 31:57.550 of the government . And that's what uh 31:57.729 --> 32:01.550 is written into uh that data rights , 32:01.560 --> 32:03.979 non-disclosure obligation . Ok . Next 32:03.989 --> 32:04.989 slide . 32:09.699 --> 32:11.939 Now the entire legend should be on the 32:11.949 --> 32:14.489 title page of any submission uh You 32:14.500 --> 32:17.829 give and it's a long uh sort of 32:17.839 --> 32:21.020 legend and takes up a lot of room . So 32:21.030 --> 32:23.680 sbas policy directive requires a legend 32:23.689 --> 32:26.300 to be included on every succeeding page . 32:26.310 --> 32:29.540 But agencies in the SB A have accepted 32:29.550 --> 32:32.890 a shortcut for succeeding pages and 32:32.900 --> 32:35.300 I've written it out there exactly . Um 32:35.310 --> 32:38.719 this page governed by the Sbars TT R 32:38.729 --> 32:41.270 data rights legend set forth on the 32:41.280 --> 32:44.439 title page which is incorporated here 32:44.449 --> 32:47.989 in as if written out in full . So you 32:48.000 --> 32:50.000 can put that at the bottom of every 32:50.000 --> 32:52.760 succeeding page to your title page and 32:52.770 --> 32:55.520 that is good enough . OK ? Next slide , 33:03.969 --> 33:07.229 you need to apply the required legend 33:07.260 --> 33:10.849 to all documents containing SB IRS TT R 33:10.859 --> 33:12.915 data . And I'm gonna qualify that in 33:12.915 --> 33:14.760 just uh just one later bullet , 33:15.300 --> 33:17.300 irrespective of the type of funding 33:17.300 --> 33:19.411 agreement . It doesn't matter whether 33:19.411 --> 33:21.078 it's a grant , a contract , a 33:21.078 --> 33:22.856 cooperative agreement and other 33:22.856 --> 33:25.078 transaction agreement , ot a task order 33:25.078 --> 33:26.911 or any other type , they can all 33:26.911 --> 33:29.920 constitute SBIR funding agreements is 33:29.930 --> 33:32.290 the term we use . It means that that 33:32.300 --> 33:35.119 contract is gonna be stole funds on you 33:35.130 --> 33:38.880 to do SBIR work and that 33:38.890 --> 33:41.400 needs to be on all documents that 33:41.410 --> 33:44.670 contain SBIR data that are uh generated 33:44.680 --> 33:47.869 under that uh uh funding agreement . 33:48.410 --> 33:50.521 The second bullet however , is really 33:50.521 --> 33:53.910 important . Uh do not affix the SB IRS 33:53.920 --> 33:57.640 TT R data rights legend to a proposal . 33:58.130 --> 34:01.260 The proposal uh contents are governed 34:01.270 --> 34:05.040 by uh fire rules and 34:05.239 --> 34:07.239 they provide for nondisclosure of 34:07.250 --> 34:09.083 critical parts of that with some 34:09.083 --> 34:12.860 exceptions . But uh you don't 34:12.870 --> 34:16.199 protect your data in a proposal . 34:16.209 --> 34:19.290 Why ? Because SBIR data is data 34:19.300 --> 34:22.439 generated under an SBIR funding 34:22.449 --> 34:25.810 agreement . And so you haven't yet 34:25.820 --> 34:28.679 gotten to a ward and started work under 34:28.689 --> 34:32.629 the uh contract . Prior Sbir 34:32.639 --> 34:35.330 data that you do include is uh 34:35.340 --> 34:38.649 protected . Yes , by that fire clause 34:38.659 --> 34:42.149 by that fire uh rule that protects uh 34:42.159 --> 34:45.750 proposal uh contents . So you don't 34:45.760 --> 34:48.040 have to worry about putting Sbir data 34:48.070 --> 34:50.669 into a proposal , but don't mark it 34:50.679 --> 34:53.290 with the legend . Ok . Next slide . 35:02.290 --> 35:04.800 Now support services contractors are 35:04.810 --> 35:07.080 those contractors that are under a 35:07.090 --> 35:08.979 contract to sit right next to the 35:08.979 --> 35:11.201 government person and , and get all the 35:11.201 --> 35:13.368 data and , and learn everything that , 35:13.368 --> 35:15.989 that uh uh government person knows . 35:16.100 --> 35:18.780 They sign a nondisclosure document with 35:18.790 --> 35:20.901 the government and they're bound also 35:20.901 --> 35:23.123 by the Federal Trade Secrets Act . Like 35:23.123 --> 35:26.250 federal employees are uh in reports and 35:26.260 --> 35:28.979 submissions . I like to say , submit as 35:28.989 --> 35:31.870 little Sbir data as possible , as 35:31.879 --> 35:33.990 little as you can get away with under 35:33.990 --> 35:37.360 the contract . And an agency simply 35:37.370 --> 35:40.000 can't disclose eventually when the 20 35:40.010 --> 35:42.840 year period runs out what it never knew 35:42.850 --> 35:46.469 in the first place . Here's a caution 35:46.479 --> 35:50.209 do not voluntarily disclose sbir 35:50.219 --> 35:52.830 data outside of the government without 35:52.840 --> 35:54.810 a nondisclosure agreement . So if 35:54.820 --> 35:57.739 you're gonna do a deal with a large 35:57.750 --> 36:00.929 firm , uh enter into a nondisclosure 36:00.939 --> 36:03.610 and like I like to use the title 36:03.620 --> 36:06.860 nondisclosure and non use agreement so 36:06.870 --> 36:09.389 that you limit their ability to 36:09.399 --> 36:12.090 disclose the data you give them and you 36:12.100 --> 36:14.889 limit their ability to use it . So you 36:14.899 --> 36:17.010 probably want to get a lawyer to help 36:17.010 --> 36:19.010 you with that agreement . I would 36:19.020 --> 36:21.590 caution you to watch powerpoint 36:21.600 --> 36:23.767 presentations to the government . They 36:23.767 --> 36:25.933 a lot of times like you to come in and 36:25.933 --> 36:27.933 then they'll have their contractors 36:27.933 --> 36:30.156 sitting in there in the room . You need 36:30.156 --> 36:33.409 to , first of all ask who here is not a 36:33.419 --> 36:36.060 federal employee or a support services 36:36.070 --> 36:38.550 contractor . Raise your hand and if 36:38.560 --> 36:41.320 five hands go up , don't deliver your 36:41.330 --> 36:43.669 powerpoint presentation . If it has 36:43.679 --> 36:47.300 SBIR data in it , ask those people to 36:47.310 --> 36:51.239 be excused . So be aware that 36:51.250 --> 36:53.500 sometimes the government might bring in 36:53.770 --> 36:55.780 uh non-government people . And then 36:55.790 --> 36:58.110 when you display all your SBIR data to 36:58.120 --> 37:00.179 them , they'll say you voluntarily 37:00.189 --> 37:02.469 disclosed it . We no longer have a 37:02.479 --> 37:05.060 non-disclosure obligation for 37:05.070 --> 37:07.600 everything . All the SBIR data you had 37:07.610 --> 37:10.510 in that powerpoint presentation . Even 37:10.520 --> 37:12.076 if you mark that powerpoint 37:12.076 --> 37:15.449 presentation as SBIR data . The problem 37:15.459 --> 37:17.570 is you voluntarily disclose it to the 37:17.570 --> 37:20.610 public . Ok , next slide 37:27.580 --> 37:30.219 that completes my presentation and I'm 37:30.229 --> 37:32.850 going to turn it over to the honorable 37:32.860 --> 37:36.370 Tom Hill . Thank you . Thanks Dave . 37:36.570 --> 37:39.679 Um everyone . Dave's just done a good 37:39.689 --> 37:42.219 job of working through what are S pr S 37:42.229 --> 37:44.340 TT R data rights . He's giving you an 37:44.340 --> 37:46.173 overview of what's in the policy 37:46.173 --> 37:48.340 directive . He's giving you uh a sense 37:48.340 --> 37:50.285 of what you really need to do when 37:50.285 --> 37:49.810 you're gonna market your data and 37:49.820 --> 37:51.764 protect your data . I was thinking 37:51.764 --> 37:53.876 about that today . I mean , you , you 37:53.876 --> 37:56.042 start to wonder uh is there an acronym 37:56.042 --> 37:58.042 that would help you recognize , you 37:58.042 --> 38:00.264 know , what you should be doing ? And I 38:00.264 --> 38:02.598 kept thinking , identify your data mark , 38:02.598 --> 38:04.709 your data , protect your data , which 38:04.709 --> 38:06.931 is basically what they just ran through 38:06.931 --> 38:08.876 with you at the list today's chart 38:08.876 --> 38:10.931 there . But you know , we are who we 38:10.931 --> 38:13.098 were . Then I , as , as Matt mentioned 38:13.098 --> 38:15.264 to you , I was ac co at Lakehurst . Uh 38:15.264 --> 38:18.860 it's an a uh lab , one of 38:18.870 --> 38:21.899 several and uh basically , we were 38:21.909 --> 38:23.853 involved , had been engaged for 20 38:23.853 --> 38:25.798 years in the S pr TT R contracting 38:25.798 --> 38:27.687 business in essence , during that 38:27.687 --> 38:30.219 period of time . Uh up up to my 38:30.229 --> 38:33.010 retirement , we obligated the $5.2 38:33.020 --> 38:35.090 billion or excess of 5.2 billion , 38:35.540 --> 38:37.979 about 20,000 transactions . What was 38:37.989 --> 38:40.179 interesting about those numbers is the 38:40.189 --> 38:44.189 fact that 50% of those dollars were 38:44.199 --> 38:46.366 associated with basic applied research 38:46.366 --> 38:49.500 phase ones and twos and 50% of it was 38:49.510 --> 38:53.060 involved in production buying . And I I 38:53.070 --> 38:55.419 happen to be noticing some chat uh 38:55.429 --> 38:57.989 messages going around to give you a 38:58.000 --> 39:01.149 sense of uh that volume of dollars in 39:01.159 --> 39:03.479 business uh that represented about 39:03.489 --> 39:05.656 20,000 transactions throughout a whole 39:05.656 --> 39:08.899 period of time , 90% of that would be 39:08.909 --> 39:10.798 associated with the basic applied 39:10.798 --> 39:13.340 research , 10% of the transactions . 39:13.350 --> 39:15.459 And again , that's $2.6 billion in 39:15.469 --> 39:18.629 obligations uh represented production 39:18.639 --> 39:21.750 efforts that resulted from continuation 39:21.760 --> 39:24.629 from phase one and two . So with that , 39:24.989 --> 39:27.045 I'd like to , I'm going to be giving 39:27.045 --> 39:29.211 you some , some observations about the 39:29.211 --> 39:32.590 contracting process itself and 39:32.760 --> 39:35.219 some , I would think some guides and 39:35.229 --> 39:37.590 some tips as to how to be successful . 39:38.340 --> 39:40.562 Can I , uh interrupt you for a second ? 39:40.562 --> 39:42.562 There are some people that say that 39:42.562 --> 39:44.618 they can't hear you . Yeah , I don't 39:44.620 --> 39:47.659 know if it's the , the , how close you 39:47.669 --> 39:49.780 are to the mic , but there's some , I 39:49.780 --> 39:51.947 can hear you fine , but some people in 39:51.947 --> 39:53.947 the audience are claiming that they 39:53.947 --> 39:56.169 can't hear you very well . Really ? I'm 39:56.169 --> 39:58.391 sorry about that . Uh Has this improved 39:58.391 --> 40:00.558 folks if you can get the mic , I guess 40:00.558 --> 40:02.780 closer to you , which would be a little 40:02.780 --> 40:05.449 better . OK . We'll try that . 40:07.159 --> 40:09.103 I apologize . We've had some audio 40:09.110 --> 40:13.030 issues uh with uh this presentation 40:13.040 --> 40:15.570 before even in the dry run and I'm 40:15.580 --> 40:17.860 hoping that that's better . That sounds 40:17.909 --> 40:21.010 better . Thank you . OK . And you know , 40:21.020 --> 40:23.330 uh just to quickly re restate some 40:23.340 --> 40:25.562 things that they , they may have missed 40:25.562 --> 40:28.090 as ac co I ran an operation that for 20 40:28.100 --> 40:30.939 years did about $5.2 billion and a and 40:30.949 --> 40:34.020 more of uh Sbirctr contracting 40:34.489 --> 40:37.340 um that represented obligation wise , 40:37.350 --> 40:40.540 50% going to basically apply research , 40:40.550 --> 40:43.020 50% going to production and to give you 40:43.030 --> 40:45.850 a sense of the volume of activity that 40:45.860 --> 40:48.959 was 20,000 transactions and of those 40:48.969 --> 40:52.820 20,000 transactions , 10% of them 40:53.379 --> 40:55.659 were uh towards production . So it 40:55.669 --> 40:58.879 gives you an idea ratio of nine , you 40:58.889 --> 41:00.580 know , one out of 10 type of 41:00.590 --> 41:02.701 transactions ended up in production . 41:02.701 --> 41:05.459 Not that that is an equation to uh the 41:05.469 --> 41:07.247 number of contractors that were 41:07.247 --> 41:08.969 successful getting phase three 41:08.969 --> 41:11.191 contracts . Just that that was what the 41:11.191 --> 41:13.419 data would tell us . I uh I'm going to 41:13.429 --> 41:15.485 give you some observations generally 41:15.485 --> 41:17.651 about the contracting process . Uh how 41:17.651 --> 41:19.873 I think it has been successful . What I 41:19.873 --> 41:22.207 see is trends that have been developing . 41:22.207 --> 41:25.340 And basically my , my view of this 41:25.350 --> 41:27.572 whole process is just that one , it's a 41:27.572 --> 41:30.040 process two to be successful , we have 41:30.050 --> 41:32.620 to manage each other's expectations . 41:32.889 --> 41:35.000 And I think that's at the heart of uh 41:35.000 --> 41:36.833 contracting in itself , but it's 41:36.833 --> 41:39.830 particularly SBRS DJ R contracting next . 41:39.899 --> 41:40.899 Uh Please , 41:44.520 --> 41:46.631 this is stating the obvious , why are 41:46.631 --> 41:48.909 you involved in the SBR program ? Well , 41:48.909 --> 41:51.076 to address national research and needs 41:51.076 --> 41:53.131 that are profited by Dod and oh , by 41:53.131 --> 41:55.298 the way , because of being a former do 41:55.298 --> 41:57.370 DPC O , my view of the world is 41:57.379 --> 42:00.429 influenced by 20 plus years in S pr 42:00.439 --> 42:02.661 contracting as well as 40 plus years in 42:02.661 --> 42:05.449 dod contracting . Um you know , the the 42:05.459 --> 42:07.237 objective is to further develop 42:07.237 --> 42:08.792 technologies that have dual 42:08.792 --> 42:10.737 applications for both military and 42:10.737 --> 42:12.848 commercial markets and to mature that 42:12.848 --> 42:14.959 technology to to provide solutions to 42:14.959 --> 42:17.126 the government's stated needs and also 42:17.126 --> 42:19.459 solutions to the commercial marketplace . 42:19.459 --> 42:19.179 Next slide , please . 42:23.120 --> 42:25.719 Ok , took a look at the last you know , 42:25.729 --> 42:27.840 I mean , you know , we are who we are 42:27.840 --> 42:30.050 then uh I took a look at the last four 42:30.060 --> 42:33.560 years of obligations uh out of fesng 42:33.669 --> 42:36.419 and to give you a sense of , you know , 42:36.830 --> 42:39.709 how much money is truly being spent by 42:39.719 --> 42:42.889 dod in these respective areas . 42:43.199 --> 42:45.870 You can see that over the past four 42:45.879 --> 42:49.280 years , $7.5 billion has been pumped 42:49.290 --> 42:51.512 into doing basic and applied research . 42:51.512 --> 42:54.649 And to give you a sense from Fy 19 to 42:54.659 --> 42:57.560 Fy 22 where I had to compare the total 42:57.570 --> 43:01.149 numbers in relation uh base year 19 to 43:01.159 --> 43:04.449 22 . There has been an annual increase 43:04.459 --> 43:07.780 of about 30.3% for 43:07.790 --> 43:11.639 Sbir and 78.7% 43:11.649 --> 43:14.860 from comparison of 19 to 22 in S TT R 43:14.870 --> 43:17.120 business . And what that tells me is 43:17.129 --> 43:19.296 basic applied research figures show an 43:19.296 --> 43:22.540 intent to be interested in investing in 43:22.550 --> 43:26.540 the SB I SBS B CS technologies . 43:26.739 --> 43:28.683 So with that next chart , please , 43:33.239 --> 43:36.449 you jump one . Uh No , we're good , 43:37.750 --> 43:39.750 right . There are there , there are 43:39.750 --> 43:43.399 actually three keys that I have in SVRS 43:43.409 --> 43:45.969 TT R contracting . The first key is 43:45.979 --> 43:48.050 time is of the essence . Thank you . 43:48.580 --> 43:50.691 The second key is standardization and 43:50.691 --> 43:53.439 clarity and communication is not a word . 43:53.830 --> 43:55.941 And the third is the objective of the 43:55.941 --> 43:58.274 program is the phase three . Next chart , 43:58.274 --> 44:01.909 please . Why time is of the 44:01.919 --> 44:05.409 essence dod puts its equipment , it 44:05.419 --> 44:07.586 designs and deploys its equipment with 44:07.586 --> 44:09.697 the prospect of it being out there in 44:09.697 --> 44:11.919 service exceeding 25 years . And I 44:11.929 --> 44:15.070 picked the B 52 as an example of that . 44:15.080 --> 44:18.870 Just that circumstance , the airframe 44:18.879 --> 44:20.909 that we're talking about has flown 44:20.919 --> 44:23.429 missions and will float , fly missions 44:23.439 --> 44:26.020 for more than 100 years by the time 44:26.310 --> 44:28.830 it's ready to be retired . And 44:28.840 --> 44:30.840 basically in looking at that , just 44:30.840 --> 44:32.896 that particular example , you know , 44:32.896 --> 44:34.729 you know , you're gonna run into 44:34.729 --> 44:36.951 considerations of obsolescence , safety 44:36.951 --> 44:39.173 concerns , maintainability , challenges 44:39.173 --> 44:41.173 and capability enhancements to meet 44:41.173 --> 44:43.340 emerging needs . Why that that exist ? 44:43.340 --> 44:45.507 Why does that exist ? Because 20 years 44:45.507 --> 44:47.562 ago , the way the design was created 44:47.562 --> 44:49.618 for a platform and the equipment may 44:49.618 --> 44:51.729 not necessarily deal with the threats 44:51.729 --> 44:53.840 today , cybersecurity threats is just 44:53.840 --> 44:56.007 particularly one of them for connected 44:56.007 --> 44:59.159 um systems . Now , I also want to 44:59.169 --> 45:01.280 mention why do I think time is of the 45:01.280 --> 45:03.280 essence and there was an experience 45:03.280 --> 45:06.340 that we had in 2010 . Um in 2010 , we 45:06.350 --> 45:09.810 noticed an uptick in awards to 45:09.820 --> 45:13.179 Sbir uh companies doing production . 45:13.459 --> 45:15.550 And the reason for that was at that 45:15.560 --> 45:19.010 junction , we were in Iran and um not 45:19.020 --> 45:21.353 Iran , excuse me , Iraq and Afghanistan . 45:21.780 --> 45:25.649 And in those two theater 45:25.810 --> 45:29.310 uh areas um we 45:29.320 --> 45:33.159 were implementing some ISR Intelligence 45:33.169 --> 45:34.725 surveillance reconnaissance 45:34.725 --> 45:37.669 capabilities that were to address 22 45:37.679 --> 45:40.669 specific uh problems . One of them was 45:40.679 --> 45:43.020 IED detection , it provides explosive 45:43.030 --> 45:47.030 devices . The other was to give the 45:47.040 --> 45:49.479 concept of uh the surrounding uh the 45:49.489 --> 45:52.510 surrounding environment for our uh our 45:52.520 --> 45:55.500 uh marines uh servicemen , you know , 45:55.510 --> 45:57.677 in uh in theater and to make sure that 45:57.677 --> 45:59.677 they were protected , it gives them 45:59.677 --> 46:01.788 situational awareness of the , of the 46:01.788 --> 46:03.843 theater and what we found . I mean , 46:03.843 --> 46:05.566 first of all that , that whole 46:05.566 --> 46:07.732 initiative uh and it went over several 46:07.732 --> 46:09.843 years , we ended up putting a billion 46:09.843 --> 46:11.954 dollars worth of work into uh those , 46:11.954 --> 46:14.121 those uh areas , you know , to , to do 46:14.121 --> 46:16.343 just what I said , the ISR capabilities 46:16.343 --> 46:19.070 as well as the IED detection . And we 46:19.080 --> 46:21.629 were finding that we could accomplish 46:21.639 --> 46:25.570 that test through the SB CS in days and 46:25.580 --> 46:28.139 weeks of getting product in country as 46:28.149 --> 46:30.280 opposed to months and years where we 46:30.290 --> 46:32.457 just pursue other standard procurement 46:32.457 --> 46:35.899 procedures so that galvanized both for 46:35.909 --> 46:39.280 myself and my staff , the need to move 46:39.290 --> 46:41.979 quickly in getting things awarded and 46:41.989 --> 46:43.979 products to the war fighter . Next 46:43.989 --> 46:44.989 chart , please . 46:47.870 --> 46:50.479 OK . S pr contracting , you know , over 46:50.489 --> 46:52.489 the last five years , uh There have 46:52.489 --> 46:56.209 been four GAO uh studies done on SBRS 46:56.219 --> 46:58.709 TT R contracting and the intent of 46:58.719 --> 47:00.441 those studies was to determine 47:00.441 --> 47:02.169 adherence to the SB a policy 47:02.179 --> 47:05.129 requirements and recommendations that 47:05.139 --> 47:09.139 are in the uh policy directive . And to 47:09.149 --> 47:11.371 just so you're aware the requirement in 47:11.371 --> 47:13.538 the po policy directive is that within 47:13.538 --> 47:16.340 90 days of the activities are receiving 47:16.350 --> 47:18.580 proposals from the SP CS are to notify 47:18.679 --> 47:22.500 the uh the proposal of their selection 47:22.510 --> 47:25.909 status . The recommendation is that 47:25.919 --> 47:28.429 awards be made within 100 and 80 days 47:28.439 --> 47:30.661 from the date of receivable proposals . 47:30.790 --> 47:33.540 And what we have seen over over this 47:33.550 --> 47:35.606 period of time , the last five years 47:35.606 --> 47:37.979 plus is the fact that the activities 47:37.989 --> 47:41.179 have stepped back and to a to a person , 47:41.189 --> 47:43.810 almost all of the fans have taken the 47:43.820 --> 47:45.876 initiative to start looking at their 47:45.876 --> 47:48.659 operation and doing several of the next , 47:49.800 --> 47:52.810 the next issues which is basically uh 47:52.820 --> 47:55.290 reorganizing their operation to service 47:55.300 --> 47:57.356 the customer and this is where there 47:57.356 --> 47:59.467 was a creation of contracting centers 47:59.467 --> 48:01.578 of excellence . Uh Navia pursued it . 48:01.578 --> 48:03.522 Navy pursued it as well as the Air 48:03.522 --> 48:05.744 Force where that works . They developed 48:05.744 --> 48:08.022 the use of templates for solicitations , 48:08.022 --> 48:10.022 negotiations and awards of projects 48:10.022 --> 48:12.078 consistently . If you like the first 48:12.078 --> 48:14.300 solicitation or , and or award , you're 48:14.300 --> 48:16.467 gonna like the 1/100 because what that 48:16.467 --> 48:18.578 does is that gives you certainty when 48:18.578 --> 48:20.633 you're reviewing the documents as to 48:20.633 --> 48:22.633 how you're gonna respond . And with 48:22.633 --> 48:24.800 certainty also , when you're gonna get 48:24.800 --> 48:26.911 an award , they develop a contract of 48:26.911 --> 48:29.022 core personnel to process the work to 48:29.022 --> 48:31.022 be completed . And they developed a 48:31.022 --> 48:33.244 communication model with the respective 48:33.244 --> 48:34.911 contractor base to manage the 48:34.911 --> 48:36.967 expectations for proposals , submits 48:36.967 --> 48:38.899 and awards . And I can't help but 48:38.909 --> 48:42.270 restate that as each component command 48:42.649 --> 48:44.705 invariably have , they have specific 48:44.705 --> 48:46.760 vendors that are interested in their 48:46.760 --> 48:48.649 business and they talk to them uh 48:48.649 --> 48:50.816 regularly and consistently bringing up 48:50.816 --> 48:54.070 the same issues from one project to the 48:54.080 --> 48:57.300 next next chart , please . 49:00.600 --> 49:02.889 And the phase three award . Ok . 49:04.810 --> 49:06.899 Oh , I'm sorry about that . 49:08.620 --> 49:10.731 Programs are identifying solutions to 49:10.731 --> 49:12.842 existing problems and they can regret 49:12.842 --> 49:15.189 achieve the S PR program out of the 49:15.199 --> 49:17.860 NAVI R community . We basically draft 49:17.870 --> 49:20.649 our topics to address specific problems 49:20.659 --> 49:22.826 that uh each of the programs are , are 49:22.826 --> 49:24.770 are running into , which means you 49:24.770 --> 49:26.992 basically have a sponsor behind the the 49:26.992 --> 49:29.215 topic . And so if someone could come up 49:29.215 --> 49:31.437 with a solution , you have already made 49:31.437 --> 49:33.929 market . Uh the Air Force uh is using 49:33.939 --> 49:35.939 commercial solution opportunities . 49:35.939 --> 49:38.270 That was an approach where they opened 49:38.280 --> 49:40.502 up have having open topics , giving the 49:40.502 --> 49:42.391 community of small businesses the 49:42.391 --> 49:45.169 opportunity to respond to with what 49:45.179 --> 49:47.330 they have and what they perceive as 49:47.340 --> 49:49.562 solutions to potential problems for the 49:49.562 --> 49:51.729 Air Force . And then in turn to pursue 49:51.790 --> 49:53.909 uh the structure of the Air Force's 49:53.919 --> 49:56.790 program office to pursue the potential 49:56.800 --> 49:59.129 of selling those solutions to the 49:59.139 --> 50:01.709 program office . The perception is and 50:01.719 --> 50:03.830 I will share this with you . And this 50:03.830 --> 50:05.997 has been my experience . I know others 50:05.997 --> 50:08.108 may have a , a different experience , 50:08.108 --> 50:09.941 but the perception is that small 50:09.941 --> 50:12.219 business community represents an agile , 50:12.219 --> 50:14.275 technically sound cost effective and 50:14.275 --> 50:16.441 responsible partner when proceeding to 50:16.441 --> 50:19.959 implement a solution , you know , um as 50:19.969 --> 50:22.136 I said , you know , historically , you 50:22.136 --> 50:23.969 know , we've had a great deal of 50:23.969 --> 50:26.136 business at Lakehurst where we've done 50:26.136 --> 50:28.136 uh production efforts . And I think 50:28.136 --> 50:32.010 that um our , our efforts there as 50:32.020 --> 50:34.131 well as others . I mean , I've , I've 50:34.131 --> 50:36.242 seen it with the uh data from various 50:36.242 --> 50:38.131 other component commands that the 50:38.131 --> 50:40.353 initiative to get to the third phase to 50:40.353 --> 50:42.464 get the product to the war fighter is 50:42.464 --> 50:45.719 exactly following the intent of what 50:45.729 --> 50:49.479 the statute and the uh the uh uh policy 50:49.489 --> 50:51.600 directive is providing . Next chart , 50:51.600 --> 50:55.570 please . Now this is 50:55.580 --> 50:57.747 how again we're , you know , this is a 50:57.747 --> 50:59.802 two sided the issue . You know , the 50:59.802 --> 51:02.024 government has taken in issues , try to 51:02.024 --> 51:04.247 speed things up . There are things that 51:04.247 --> 51:06.247 can be done in the commercial world 51:06.247 --> 51:09.649 that will facilitate the moving forward 51:09.659 --> 51:11.492 with getting things accomplished 51:11.492 --> 51:13.689 quicker . And what I'm gonna point to 51:13.699 --> 51:15.810 is these , these are types of actions 51:15.810 --> 51:17.699 that you might take , which would 51:17.699 --> 51:20.250 facilitate getting uh the contract to 51:20.260 --> 51:22.659 you quicker . First is to recognize the 51:22.669 --> 51:24.836 sense of urgency and to take a look at 51:24.836 --> 51:27.058 your back office processes . How do you 51:27.058 --> 51:29.280 buy your materials ? How do you do your 51:29.280 --> 51:31.447 subcontracting ? If you have processes 51:31.447 --> 51:33.613 documented and prepared for how you're 51:33.613 --> 51:35.780 gonna do business , it will accelerate 51:35.780 --> 51:37.836 getting the award . And let me share 51:37.836 --> 51:40.002 with you when I tracked our processing 51:40.002 --> 51:43.050 times and I will share in the last year 51:43.449 --> 51:45.639 we were processing phase one of the 51:45.649 --> 51:47.649 award less than 30 days . We got it 51:47.649 --> 51:49.816 down to 23 but that was kind of hard . 51:50.000 --> 51:52.360 Phase twos were accomplished in 75 days 51:52.370 --> 51:54.481 and phase three is on the average and 51:54.481 --> 51:56.092 these were all averages were 51:56.092 --> 51:58.426 accomplished in 100 and two days . Well , 51:58.520 --> 52:00.409 you know , you have to attack the 52:00.409 --> 52:02.879 problem at both with the idea that 52:02.889 --> 52:05.260 there is a concept of touch time which 52:05.270 --> 52:07.492 really , you know , to do the work with 52:07.492 --> 52:09.548 work . And it's just gonna take that 52:09.548 --> 52:11.381 amount of time where we found uh 52:11.381 --> 52:13.689 tremendous benefits associated with 52:13.699 --> 52:16.090 moving the process along was reducing 52:16.100 --> 52:18.370 the wait time . And in essence , that's 52:18.379 --> 52:20.389 the time for when government asks a 52:20.399 --> 52:22.949 question and you respond , if you're 52:22.959 --> 52:25.181 already prepared to respond , if you're 52:25.181 --> 52:27.979 already aware what the questions are , 52:27.989 --> 52:30.045 they're gonna be asked , you will be 52:30.045 --> 52:32.379 prepared to turn that question around 52:32.389 --> 52:34.500 and get it back to the party that his 52:34.500 --> 52:37.300 game . Now , uh understanding the 52:37.310 --> 52:39.532 structure of the communication models , 52:39.532 --> 52:41.588 that's , that's necessary to provide 52:41.588 --> 52:43.866 responses to the anticipated questions . 52:43.866 --> 52:46.032 That's just what I was talking about . 52:46.032 --> 52:45.860 How do you acquire your materials ? Has 52:45.870 --> 52:48.092 your accounting system been audited ? I 52:48.092 --> 52:49.949 will share with you if they are 52:49.959 --> 52:52.459 pursuing that strategy regularly , 52:52.520 --> 52:54.409 you're going to be asked the same 52:54.409 --> 52:56.409 questions , doesn't matter what the 52:56.409 --> 52:58.409 topic was . But when you're talking 52:58.409 --> 53:00.353 about evaluating your proposal and 53:00.353 --> 53:02.131 taking a look at what direction 53:02.131 --> 53:04.242 contracting is going to take , that's 53:04.242 --> 53:06.464 what's going to happen , you're gonna , 53:06.464 --> 53:06.370 you're gonna be quizzed on your prime 53:06.379 --> 53:08.959 cost , you're gonna be booked to about 53:08.969 --> 53:11.191 your indirect , you know , if you don't 53:11.191 --> 53:13.080 have an audit , you know , people 53:13.080 --> 53:15.247 should be asking you give me a copy of 53:15.247 --> 53:17.469 your uh your , your , your ledger , you 53:17.469 --> 53:19.636 know , and uh that gives me an idea of 53:19.636 --> 53:21.802 your indirect . And so for all intents 53:21.802 --> 53:23.802 and purposes , putting that picture 53:23.802 --> 53:26.500 together quickly results in a more 53:26.510 --> 53:29.270 effective uh processing forward of an 53:29.280 --> 53:31.479 award . And you know what they 53:31.489 --> 53:33.545 mentioned this in his presentation , 53:33.545 --> 53:35.878 you have to understand the organization , 53:35.878 --> 53:37.933 you know who you're negotiating with 53:37.933 --> 53:40.100 and who the who the stakeholders are , 53:40.100 --> 53:42.211 whether it's program manager or Tko . 53:42.211 --> 53:44.600 Um First of all , to whom do you choose 53:44.610 --> 53:46.777 to address your challenges that you're 53:46.777 --> 53:48.999 having in the acquisition process ? But 53:48.999 --> 53:51.054 more importantly , you know , you're 53:51.054 --> 53:53.110 gonna be looking for your champion . 53:53.110 --> 53:55.054 There's going to be someone on the 53:55.054 --> 53:56.666 other side of the table that 53:56.666 --> 53:58.499 understands your technology that 53:58.499 --> 54:00.499 understands the , the opportunities 54:00.499 --> 54:02.554 that it represents to the government 54:02.554 --> 54:04.666 and they will be your , your , your , 54:04.666 --> 54:06.777 your champion within the organization 54:06.777 --> 54:08.777 to get a phase three . And really , 54:08.777 --> 54:08.770 this is all about getting to a phase 54:08.780 --> 54:11.909 three . As long as we're doing that , 54:11.919 --> 54:13.808 we're getting products of the war 54:13.808 --> 54:16.030 fighter , we're getting uh solutions to 54:16.030 --> 54:18.252 our problems and we're more effectively 54:18.252 --> 54:20.197 using our resources . Next chart , 54:20.197 --> 54:19.909 please . 54:26.219 --> 54:28.840 Ok , same period that I talked to you 54:28.850 --> 54:31.879 about the $7.5 billion of investment 54:32.159 --> 54:35.370 during that period . Eight point 54:35.379 --> 54:39.250 obviously , 8.67 billion was put into 54:39.260 --> 54:41.260 production . Now that's a myriad of 54:41.260 --> 54:43.229 technologies and thousands of 54:43.239 --> 54:45.610 transactions don't get me wrong in that , 54:45.750 --> 54:48.290 but it emphasizes D SDS interest in 54:48.300 --> 54:51.520 acquiring your goods and services . And 54:51.530 --> 54:53.641 I've watched this number increase . I 54:53.641 --> 54:55.752 mean , I , I mentioned to you in 2010 54:55.752 --> 54:57.697 being concerned about what we were 54:57.697 --> 54:59.863 deploying in , in country , you know , 54:59.863 --> 55:02.709 to Afghanistan and Iraq and I have 55:02.719 --> 55:06.709 watched Phase three Obligations , you 55:06.719 --> 55:08.886 know , not contract value . Let's make 55:08.886 --> 55:10.775 sure we understand that these are 55:10.775 --> 55:13.429 dollars going out , the vendors , it's 55:13.439 --> 55:16.739 not estimated values of ID IQs or , or 55:16.750 --> 55:19.229 anything else like that . We have 55:19.239 --> 55:22.489 watched the obligations going out to 55:22.500 --> 55:25.979 vendors increase consistently over the 55:25.989 --> 55:28.211 last , um , because we , we picked four 55:28.211 --> 55:30.580 years , I could do it over a half dozen , 55:30.590 --> 55:32.757 almost to 10 years . We have seen that 55:32.757 --> 55:35.189 trend . It's ramping up and that , uh 55:35.199 --> 55:38.239 it , you know , dod is investing in our 55:38.250 --> 55:40.209 small businesses and getting the 55:40.219 --> 55:42.219 product . Like I said , they , they 55:42.219 --> 55:44.163 consider you a , uh , you know , a 55:44.163 --> 55:46.386 trusted partner and I think that that's 55:46.386 --> 55:48.663 a , is an important takeaway . Um Yeah , 55:48.663 --> 55:50.719 we can differ , we can differ in our 55:50.719 --> 55:53.510 points of view , government to , to , 55:53.520 --> 55:56.000 to commercial enterprise . But uh at 55:56.010 --> 55:58.232 the end of the day , you know , the way 55:58.232 --> 56:00.066 the government is getting things 56:00.066 --> 56:02.290 accomplished is by your support via 56:02.300 --> 56:04.010 your contract . Mr , please . 56:09.969 --> 56:12.540 Oh , here we go . The good news . If we 56:12.550 --> 56:15.570 work together , we all win our best 56:15.580 --> 56:17.858 approach . Stay flexible in how you're , 56:17.858 --> 56:20.080 you're approaching your contract . It's 56:20.080 --> 56:22.080 an art , not a science . You know , 56:22.080 --> 56:23.969 there's not one solution fits all 56:23.969 --> 56:26.080 problems . We tailor the selection of 56:26.080 --> 56:27.691 the funding agreement to the 56:27.691 --> 56:30.024 circumstances that we're presented with . 56:30.024 --> 56:29.949 If we have a defined requirement , you 56:29.959 --> 56:32.181 could very well place a contract that's 56:32.181 --> 56:34.879 fine if it's readily , if , if we have 56:34.889 --> 56:37.239 a new vendor that's in the , in the mix . 56:37.250 --> 56:40.219 Uh much more familiar with commercial 56:40.340 --> 56:42.173 business , maybe , maybe another 56:42.173 --> 56:44.118 transaction is appropriate uh tool 56:44.810 --> 56:46.921 again , if it's a defined requirement 56:46.921 --> 56:49.143 and you can fix prices . Well , great . 56:49.143 --> 56:51.530 You pursue a fixed price if there's 56:51.540 --> 56:53.540 gonna be variables in performance , 56:53.540 --> 56:55.596 where there's a question about , you 56:55.596 --> 56:57.762 know , are our best estimates uh going 56:57.762 --> 56:59.979 to hold up and uh would it be better 56:59.989 --> 57:02.340 for a vendor to have a cost effort ? 57:02.790 --> 57:04.679 Yeah . Well , then you tailor the 57:04.679 --> 57:06.901 contract to that particular purpose . I 57:06.901 --> 57:08.679 mean , it's OK to see the world 57:08.679 --> 57:10.734 differently than UK O , but you must 57:10.734 --> 57:12.846 make sure and this is the point about 57:12.846 --> 57:14.957 communicating clearly . You must make 57:14.957 --> 57:17.179 sure that you're defining your position 57:17.179 --> 57:19.179 and maintaining your position . You 57:19.179 --> 57:21.234 know , you heard Dave say don't back 57:21.234 --> 57:23.290 off , you know , when you're talking 57:23.290 --> 57:25.457 about working your data and protecting 57:25.457 --> 57:25.250 your data and I agree with it , you 57:25.260 --> 57:28.520 have to do that . Um And that , you 57:28.530 --> 57:30.641 know , and truly , you know , I'm not 57:30.641 --> 57:33.510 saying that uh there's difficult people 57:33.520 --> 57:36.800 within the process , but we have to 57:36.810 --> 57:39.032 understand what's motivating each of us 57:39.032 --> 57:41.449 to drive , drive our positions forward . 57:41.550 --> 57:44.070 And if we understand that if we drive 57:44.080 --> 57:46.389 out , you know , the misunderstandings 57:46.399 --> 57:49.500 or the lack . And I , I would have to 57:49.510 --> 57:51.621 admit that in certain circumstances , 57:51.621 --> 57:53.860 I've seen a lack of communication or 57:53.870 --> 57:56.037 the part of the small business concern 57:56.037 --> 57:58.259 because there's a concern about raising 57:58.259 --> 58:00.259 their , their voice and saying that 58:00.259 --> 58:02.148 they have a different opinion and 58:02.148 --> 58:04.370 that's ok . I admittedly it's all right 58:04.370 --> 58:06.537 to have a different opinion . It's all 58:06.537 --> 58:08.592 right to say no , I don't want to do 58:08.592 --> 58:10.703 this be and have an explanation as to 58:10.703 --> 58:13.159 what say what the is going on . If the 58:13.169 --> 58:15.225 P CEO is taking a position and can't 58:15.270 --> 58:17.326 defend that position or explain that 58:17.326 --> 58:19.270 position to you , then I would , I 58:19.270 --> 58:21.381 would always say to you maintain your 58:21.381 --> 58:23.714 course of action until you're satisfied . 58:23.790 --> 58:27.419 And of course , the last point being be 58:27.429 --> 58:30.379 prepared to respond , you know , um I 58:30.389 --> 58:33.090 really do believe we , we , we squeezed 58:33.100 --> 58:35.530 as much time out of the process as we 58:35.540 --> 58:37.596 could when we were looking at that . 58:37.596 --> 58:39.762 And I've seen others , you know , with 58:39.762 --> 58:41.651 their , with their small business 58:41.651 --> 58:43.762 challenges , with their uh you know , 58:43.762 --> 58:45.762 sprints and , and I think there's a 58:45.762 --> 58:47.873 tremendous initiatives throughout all 58:47.873 --> 58:50.096 of dod that where they're attempting to 58:50.096 --> 58:51.929 make sure that they can get this 58:51.929 --> 58:54.040 accomplished quickly . What does that 58:54.040 --> 58:56.096 do ? If the contract award is placed 58:56.096 --> 58:58.250 quickly , performers can commence , 58:58.510 --> 59:01.800 buildings can occur . And so from the 59:01.810 --> 59:03.977 government's perspective , we've moved 59:03.977 --> 59:06.409 from committing funds to obligating 59:06.419 --> 59:10.330 funds to expending funds and that 59:10.340 --> 59:12.550 should tie itself to delivery of 59:12.560 --> 59:14.580 product . And I think that that's 59:14.590 --> 59:16.590 really at the end of the day , what 59:16.590 --> 59:18.701 we're trying to accomplish is get the 59:18.701 --> 59:20.923 product delivered next chart , please . 59:22.879 --> 59:25.046 So , here's some less than good news . 59:25.046 --> 59:27.157 And Dave was starting to allude to in 59:27.157 --> 59:29.101 his presentation over the past few 59:29.101 --> 59:28.810 years . There's been an , uh , some 59:28.820 --> 59:31.149 unfortunate interpretations of what 59:31.159 --> 59:33.270 people think is permissible under the 59:33.270 --> 59:35.770 program . And we've got just a couple 59:35.780 --> 59:37.947 of scenarios . I know we're gonna have 59:37.947 --> 59:39.780 some questions we're going to be 59:39.780 --> 59:41.947 dealing with . But um they're examples 59:41.947 --> 59:44.113 of certain occurrences that seem to be 59:44.113 --> 59:46.058 popping up a little more regularly 59:46.058 --> 59:48.889 regularly than they should . Uh And uh 59:49.050 --> 59:51.106 and we're gonna offer you , at least 59:51.106 --> 59:53.272 we'll offer you an idea of how to , to 59:53.272 --> 59:55.550 deal with those uh issues . Next chart , 59:55.550 --> 59:56.550 please . 01:00:00.699 --> 01:00:04.439 Ok . The scenario is just give me the 01:00:04.449 --> 01:00:06.671 data . All right . And then many of you 01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:09.939 have run into this , that company has 01:00:09.949 --> 01:00:12.171 been working with the dod component and 01:00:12.171 --> 01:00:14.393 to solve a problem . In this particular 01:00:14.393 --> 01:00:16.171 case , we had foreign substance 01:00:16.171 --> 01:00:18.005 penetration of smooth mechanical 01:00:18.005 --> 01:00:20.171 services in the performance of a phase 01:00:20.171 --> 01:00:22.505 two . The company is approached by name , 01:00:22.505 --> 01:00:24.449 the government stakeholder doesn't 01:00:24.449 --> 01:00:26.550 matter , requesting the firm provide 01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:28.616 all your detailed research documents 01:00:28.616 --> 01:00:31.030 without your markings on your data . Is 01:00:31.040 --> 01:00:33.262 this an acceptable request ? Next chart 01:00:33.262 --> 01:00:37.229 please . The answer 01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:39.689 is no , it's not . You know , it's been 01:00:39.699 --> 01:00:41.866 and Dave mentioned this earlier in his 01:00:41.866 --> 01:00:43.870 presentation , it's been maintained 01:00:43.879 --> 01:00:45.959 that the S BC has rights that it 01:00:45.969 --> 01:00:48.090 asserts and protects under the SM RT 01:00:48.149 --> 01:00:50.360 program . It's inappropriate for the 01:00:50.370 --> 01:00:52.899 government to require an S BC , whether 01:00:52.909 --> 01:00:56.550 under a prime or subcontract 01:00:56.560 --> 01:00:58.671 under prime contract or a subcontract 01:00:58.671 --> 01:01:00.838 to deliver data without allowing it to 01:01:00.838 --> 01:01:02.560 mark the data with its uh data 01:01:02.560 --> 01:01:04.790 restrictions . And that includes a 01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:08.330 phase three and uh you know , just 01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:10.451 taking a second and looking at that , 01:01:10.451 --> 01:01:13.489 remember if I can't do it directly 01:01:13.520 --> 01:01:15.689 prime contract , I cannot do it 01:01:15.699 --> 01:01:19.449 indirectly through a subcontract . Just 01:01:19.459 --> 01:01:21.709 have to remember , maintain the fact 01:01:21.719 --> 01:01:24.219 that you have a right to protect your 01:01:24.229 --> 01:01:26.260 data , mark your data back to the , 01:01:27.149 --> 01:01:29.371 identify your data , mark your data and 01:01:29.371 --> 01:01:31.371 protect your data . If you're doing 01:01:31.371 --> 01:01:33.149 that , you're , you're , you're 01:01:33.149 --> 01:01:35.260 fostering the future for your company 01:01:35.260 --> 01:01:37.427 and the government may approach this . 01:01:37.427 --> 01:01:39.538 Now , here's something here and , and 01:01:39.538 --> 01:01:39.439 you know , we , we point this out . 01:01:39.449 --> 01:01:41.340 It's a , it's within the policy 01:01:41.350 --> 01:01:43.820 directive . Uh I will share with you . 01:01:43.830 --> 01:01:47.439 It's not usually pursued . Uh At least 01:01:47.449 --> 01:01:49.560 I have not seen examples of it over 01:01:49.570 --> 01:01:51.639 those 20,000 transactions . I think 01:01:51.649 --> 01:01:54.820 maybe I might have seen one instance 01:01:55.070 --> 01:01:57.292 where you know , the government and the 01:01:57.292 --> 01:01:58.848 small business entered into 01:01:58.848 --> 01:02:01.790 negotiations over uh how to define and 01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:03.911 redefine their , the SB I is teaching 01:02:03.911 --> 01:02:07.850 their data rights . Um Obviously , if 01:02:07.860 --> 01:02:10.027 you're going to do that , it has to be 01:02:10.027 --> 01:02:12.249 a separate agreement and it can't be uh 01:02:12.249 --> 01:02:14.471 contingent upon you receiving S pr S TT 01:02:14.471 --> 01:02:16.770 R funding agreement . Do I think 01:02:16.780 --> 01:02:18.949 there's benefits that could be brought 01:02:18.959 --> 01:02:21.600 about with uh an agreement that could 01:02:21.610 --> 01:02:24.209 be negotiated between the two parties . 01:02:24.330 --> 01:02:26.830 Uh And I think they may , I mean , uh 01:02:27.629 --> 01:02:29.870 you know , in today's environment , if 01:02:29.879 --> 01:02:33.080 there's uh some thought associated with 01:02:33.090 --> 01:02:35.201 how you're doing business to sit down 01:02:35.201 --> 01:02:37.146 and again , talk to each other and 01:02:37.146 --> 01:02:38.979 resolve it and have a reasonable 01:02:38.979 --> 01:02:40.812 discussion . I know by the way , 01:02:40.812 --> 01:02:42.979 potential in there , if you're looking 01:02:42.979 --> 01:02:45.090 at the policy directive says that you 01:02:45.090 --> 01:02:47.201 can extend the term of the production 01:02:47.201 --> 01:02:49.423 period . So I mean , you know , there , 01:02:49.423 --> 01:02:51.590 there's some , some puts and takes and 01:02:51.590 --> 01:02:53.590 you know , possibly this would be a 01:02:53.590 --> 01:02:56.699 another way of addressing potential 01:02:56.709 --> 01:02:59.070 issues that exist for you today . Um If 01:02:59.080 --> 01:03:01.290 you can't resolve them uh through 01:03:01.300 --> 01:03:03.719 reasonable discussion of uh what the 01:03:03.729 --> 01:03:06.290 clauses allow you to do and you know , 01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:09.270 and , and in talking to a PC O having 01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:11.530 them to decide , you know , how to move 01:03:11.540 --> 01:03:13.762 forward with the project . Next chart , 01:03:13.762 --> 01:03:13.729 please . 01:03:19.600 --> 01:03:22.790 OK , here we go . Let's just have a lot 01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:25.709 of prototypes . S BC is requested to 01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:27.830 provide 20 copies of software product 01:03:27.830 --> 01:03:29.552 under a phase two contract and 01:03:29.552 --> 01:03:31.497 prototypes . The government has no 01:03:31.497 --> 01:03:31.370 intention of quiring any additional 01:03:31.379 --> 01:03:33.435 copies of the software under a phase 01:03:33.435 --> 01:03:35.601 three . Is this acceptable next year , 01:03:35.601 --> 01:03:36.370 please ? 01:03:39.899 --> 01:03:42.179 And the answer is no , it's not the 01:03:42.189 --> 01:03:44.356 concept of producing a prototype under 01:03:44.356 --> 01:03:46.300 phase two is intended to allow for 01:03:46.300 --> 01:03:48.300 testing and determining whether the 01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:50.467 item required requires of the concepts 01:03:50.467 --> 01:03:52.745 developed under the topic for guidance , 01:03:52.745 --> 01:03:54.578 we look at the prototype , other 01:03:54.578 --> 01:03:56.522 transactions and the idea that the 01:03:56.522 --> 01:03:58.522 development contract may be used to 01:03:58.522 --> 01:04:00.245 require a reasonable number of 01:04:00.245 --> 01:04:02.411 prototypes to test in the field before 01:04:02.411 --> 01:04:04.189 making a decision to purchasing 01:04:04.189 --> 01:04:03.949 quantity . And always remember 01:04:03.959 --> 01:04:06.219 purchasing in quantity is associated 01:04:06.229 --> 01:04:08.090 with the production effort . The 01:04:08.100 --> 01:04:10.211 attempt to use a development contract 01:04:10.211 --> 01:04:12.919 as noted is inappropriate for the use 01:04:12.929 --> 01:04:15.096 of that particular contractual vehicle 01:04:15.096 --> 01:04:17.207 river . The phase two is being funded 01:04:17.207 --> 01:04:21.050 by sbir funding , future funding . 01:04:21.229 --> 01:04:23.489 Um A phase three is O PM , other 01:04:23.500 --> 01:04:25.389 people's money , it's going to be 01:04:25.389 --> 01:04:28.169 whatever is the appropriate funds for 01:04:28.179 --> 01:04:31.270 the statement of work that's being uh 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:34.169 solicited and awarded . And I would 01:04:34.179 --> 01:04:37.360 argue that uh in this scenario , the 01:04:37.370 --> 01:04:39.750 appropriation that's being obligated is 01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:42.159 probably inappropriate for what's 01:04:42.169 --> 01:04:44.689 resulting here . Next chart , please . 01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:52.560 Ok . Oh , there we go . So there are 3 01:04:52.570 --> 01:04:55.199 May I have your access code , please ? 01:04:55.479 --> 01:04:58.810 And um I know a number of SP CS get 01:04:58.820 --> 01:05:01.042 request to provide their access code to 01:05:01.042 --> 01:05:03.209 software during the performance of the 01:05:03.209 --> 01:05:06.949 S pr S teacher agreements . Um Make 01:05:06.959 --> 01:05:07.959 sure please 01:05:12.389 --> 01:05:15.790 so many this with ownership . And the 01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:17.967 answer is , could this be , could this 01:05:17.967 --> 01:05:19.856 be a legitimate request ? And the 01:05:19.856 --> 01:05:22.022 answer is yes , you know , the Defense 01:05:22.022 --> 01:05:24.022 Innovation Board under SFC that the 01:05:24.022 --> 01:05:25.967 government should and will require 01:05:25.967 --> 01:05:28.189 access codes to required software uh to 01:05:28.189 --> 01:05:30.411 seek to obtain that source code for non 01:05:30.411 --> 01:05:32.411 custom software for the purposes of 01:05:32.411 --> 01:05:34.467 vulnerability , scanning and related 01:05:34.467 --> 01:05:36.522 analysis . And let's be honest , you 01:05:36.522 --> 01:05:38.633 know , cybersecurity issues today are 01:05:38.633 --> 01:05:40.689 so so active and so prevalent that , 01:05:40.689 --> 01:05:42.911 you know , that's one of the one of the 01:05:42.911 --> 01:05:42.500 reasons why they need to be testing the 01:05:42.510 --> 01:05:44.659 software and it goes on from there . 01:05:44.689 --> 01:05:47.500 However , granted , it might be a 01:05:47.510 --> 01:05:50.159 legitimate request but this does not . 01:05:50.379 --> 01:05:52.939 Um this request does in no way 01:05:52.959 --> 01:05:55.181 abrogates the ownership rights of the S 01:05:55.181 --> 01:05:57.348 PR S TT R data resident in the S BC in 01:05:57.348 --> 01:05:59.181 those stated in incidents . It's 01:05:59.181 --> 01:06:01.181 incumbent upon the S BC to properly 01:06:01.181 --> 01:06:03.292 assert and mark , deliver data to the 01:06:03.292 --> 01:06:04.959 government to ensure adequate 01:06:04.959 --> 01:06:07.126 protection of its S PR TT R data . And 01:06:07.126 --> 01:06:09.348 what I'm gonna say is again back to the 01:06:09.348 --> 01:06:12.600 acronym , I identify mark and protect 01:06:12.929 --> 01:06:15.096 and that's really what drives , I mean 01:06:15.096 --> 01:06:18.489 guides go to the D 42 52 2 27 70 01:06:18.500 --> 01:06:21.850 18 and that will hopefully help you 01:06:21.860 --> 01:06:24.750 understand that . Yes , you have , you 01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:26.649 know , you , you have a couple of 01:06:26.649 --> 01:06:28.982 pillars upon which to protect your data . 01:06:28.982 --> 01:06:31.159 You know , background data is , is 01:06:31.169 --> 01:06:33.110 dressed addressed in 70 18 which 01:06:33.120 --> 01:06:35.342 basically says , you know , you have to 01:06:35.342 --> 01:06:37.580 again identify assert and have the 01:06:37.590 --> 01:06:39.701 appropriate markings on your data for 01:06:39.701 --> 01:06:42.699 that , which is uh proprietary . And it 01:06:42.760 --> 01:06:44.871 gives you an idea of what you have to 01:06:44.871 --> 01:06:47.919 do for SBIR data and identifying and 01:06:47.929 --> 01:06:49.873 protecting that data . But it also 01:06:49.873 --> 01:06:51.929 alludes to the fact that I allude to 01:06:51.929 --> 01:06:54.040 earlier is you could have actually an 01:06:54.040 --> 01:06:55.818 agreement that would affect the 01:06:55.818 --> 01:06:57.818 protection of your data um that was 01:06:57.818 --> 01:06:59.873 negotiated in accordance with the uh 01:06:59.873 --> 01:07:02.096 the terms of the policy directive . And 01:07:02.096 --> 01:07:04.207 again , would be a grounds upon which 01:07:04.207 --> 01:07:06.429 to protect your interests . And this is 01:07:06.429 --> 01:07:08.540 all about protecting your interests . 01:07:08.540 --> 01:07:10.850 Um Basically contacting , you know , 01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:14.629 again , that's uh that's an , an easy 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:18.370 way of uh getting a product or service 01:07:18.379 --> 01:07:20.570 accomplished that will support the war 01:07:20.580 --> 01:07:23.449 fighter . And as I said to you earlier , 01:07:23.459 --> 01:07:25.681 I mean , with the processing times that 01:07:25.681 --> 01:07:27.570 we were experiencing and I assume 01:07:27.570 --> 01:07:29.681 others are experiencing comparable uh 01:07:29.681 --> 01:07:32.229 processing times that uh in and of 01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:34.929 itself is a benefit to a program office 01:07:34.939 --> 01:07:36.828 because at the end of the day , a 01:07:36.828 --> 01:07:38.828 program office is required to get a 01:07:38.828 --> 01:07:40.899 capability out to their eventual 01:07:40.909 --> 01:07:42.770 customer next 01:07:50.790 --> 01:07:54.110 and end of my prepared uh comments . Uh 01:07:54.229 --> 01:07:56.300 Thank you very much for that most uh 01:07:56.310 --> 01:07:59.850 knowledgeable uh session , Dave again . 01:07:59.860 --> 01:08:02.550 Thank you . Um We're gonna run into the 01:08:02.560 --> 01:08:05.239 question and answer period . Um We 01:08:05.250 --> 01:08:08.629 received well over 200 questions on the 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:11.090 uh uh registration prior to this 01:08:11.100 --> 01:08:14.820 happening . Um I filtered through um uh 01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:16.840 many of them and we're getting many 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.270 questions in the chat . When we post 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:21.600 this on our site , we will um try to 01:08:21.609 --> 01:08:24.330 address all of the questions that have 01:08:24.339 --> 01:08:27.060 been posted . Um But I'm gonna start 01:08:27.069 --> 01:08:30.109 off and I will , I will read questions 01:08:30.120 --> 01:08:33.870 um and Mr Metzger is gonna field them . 01:08:34.129 --> 01:08:37.938 So the first question we have if 01:08:37.949 --> 01:08:41.418 um an S pr company 01:08:41.719 --> 01:08:43.830 has a technology where the protection 01:08:43.830 --> 01:08:46.810 period has run out . What if any 01:08:46.819 --> 01:08:50.080 additional action should they take 01:08:50.459 --> 01:08:53.839 prior to entering into a phase 01:08:53.850 --> 01:08:56.870 three contract ? So , I mean that , 01:08:56.879 --> 01:08:59.470 that their , their , their , their 01:08:59.830 --> 01:09:02.330 effort that they are gonna have the 01:09:02.339 --> 01:09:04.709 phase three on the protection period 01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:08.120 has expired . Now they're going into a 01:09:08.129 --> 01:09:10.185 uh phase three . What should they do 01:09:10.185 --> 01:09:12.129 prior to entering into , into that 01:09:12.129 --> 01:09:15.540 phase three ? There's really no special 01:09:15.549 --> 01:09:18.439 action to be required . Uh They should 01:09:18.450 --> 01:09:20.910 make sure that they get the 20 year 01:09:20.919 --> 01:09:22.859 protection for new data that's 01:09:22.870 --> 01:09:25.069 developed under phase three . But 01:09:25.080 --> 01:09:27.740 there's really nothing they can do uh 01:09:27.750 --> 01:09:31.620 to uh extend the , 01:09:31.629 --> 01:09:35.080 the expiring data rights protection 01:09:35.089 --> 01:09:37.799 period that they're experiencing under 01:09:37.810 --> 01:09:41.740 prior uh contracts . So there may be 01:09:41.750 --> 01:09:43.972 some overlap . It could be that it took 01:09:43.972 --> 01:09:46.028 a long time for the agency to get to 01:09:46.028 --> 01:09:47.861 phase three , but there's really 01:09:47.861 --> 01:09:49.917 nothing special that I can recommend 01:09:49.917 --> 01:09:52.709 other than making sure that you get uh 01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:56.399 your sbir data rights in the new phase 01:09:56.410 --> 01:09:59.310 three . And that will protect new data 01:09:59.319 --> 01:10:01.729 that you develop . Keep in mind , 01:10:02.310 --> 01:10:05.009 expiring contracts are largely phase 01:10:05.020 --> 01:10:08.939 one and phase two and that data is only 01:10:08.950 --> 01:10:11.310 semi useful to anyone who receives it 01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:14.740 five years after development . So you 01:10:14.750 --> 01:10:17.350 have your technology lead and that's 01:10:17.359 --> 01:10:19.303 what's valuable , takes no further 01:10:19.303 --> 01:10:22.000 action to keep that lead . All right . 01:10:22.009 --> 01:10:24.850 Thank you . Um Next question is that we 01:10:24.859 --> 01:10:27.569 have before we leave that , before we 01:10:27.580 --> 01:10:30.810 leave as a PC O and I , and I 01:10:30.819 --> 01:10:32.930 understand everything that David just 01:10:32.930 --> 01:10:36.069 said , I , I got that . But as a PC O I 01:10:36.080 --> 01:10:38.779 would ask the company , yeah , we 01:10:38.790 --> 01:10:42.600 really , the company , um you know , 01:10:43.229 --> 01:10:45.509 when we talk about the data that was 01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:48.600 covered by the uh SVRR protection 01:10:48.609 --> 01:10:52.509 period , uh Was there other background 01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:54.810 data that was proprietary to the 01:10:54.819 --> 01:10:57.979 company that could influence how the 01:10:57.990 --> 01:11:00.279 government might look at the 01:11:00.290 --> 01:11:02.500 overarching data package that you're 01:11:02.509 --> 01:11:04.842 you're discussing . I mean , in essence , 01:11:04.842 --> 01:11:08.569 um the Sbir 01:11:08.580 --> 01:11:10.802 initiative and the S pr productive data 01:11:10.899 --> 01:11:14.370 is really a a falling out of or part 01:11:14.379 --> 01:11:16.870 of uh the proprietary information that 01:11:16.879 --> 01:11:19.046 you had beforehand . Well , if you can 01:11:19.046 --> 01:11:22.879 link and just if you can link , 01:11:22.890 --> 01:11:26.799 that you require the proprietary data 01:11:27.080 --> 01:11:30.490 to be able to uh have a contract , 01:11:30.569 --> 01:11:33.399 then the thing I would argue is that 01:11:33.410 --> 01:11:35.632 you're looking at potential for 10 US E 01:11:35.632 --> 01:11:39.450 23 04 C one to come into play as the 01:11:39.459 --> 01:11:41.709 justification to place the contract , 01:11:41.720 --> 01:11:43.720 not that it's going to affect , you 01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:45.776 know , your , your , your protection 01:11:45.776 --> 01:11:47.720 period under the SBR uh uh data 01:11:47.729 --> 01:11:50.240 protections , but effectively looking 01:11:50.250 --> 01:11:52.306 at the totality of your data package 01:11:52.306 --> 01:11:54.569 that could very well be the direction 01:11:54.580 --> 01:11:58.450 that you have to go . Um Mr thought 01:11:58.580 --> 01:12:01.689 over . Thank you , Tom . Um The next 01:12:01.700 --> 01:12:05.069 question is um um a small 01:12:05.080 --> 01:12:07.180 business um who's received multiple 01:12:07.189 --> 01:12:09.950 phase two and phase three awards has 01:12:09.959 --> 01:12:12.790 been acquired by a large business . All 01:12:12.799 --> 01:12:16.209 the contracts have been nov um 01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:19.490 during the performance of the phase 01:12:19.660 --> 01:12:23.470 three work after novation , a logical 01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:27.089 extension of the work is discovered and 01:12:27.100 --> 01:12:29.930 developed . What are the intellectual 01:12:29.939 --> 01:12:32.669 property protections and implications ? 01:12:34.629 --> 01:12:37.459 Well , for those 01:12:37.799 --> 01:12:41.759 new uh developments that 01:12:41.770 --> 01:12:45.100 extend the prior sbir research , 01:12:45.390 --> 01:12:48.970 those are owned by now the 01:12:48.979 --> 01:12:52.359 acquiring firm and the private 01:12:52.810 --> 01:12:55.939 firms own them . They don't have to 01:12:55.950 --> 01:12:58.061 divulge them to the government . They 01:12:58.061 --> 01:12:59.783 don't have to give them to the 01:12:59.783 --> 01:13:01.617 government unless the government 01:13:01.617 --> 01:13:03.839 insists on it in a later contract . But 01:13:03.839 --> 01:13:05.700 the government is going to be 01:13:05.709 --> 01:13:09.000 interested at some point if it issues 01:13:09.009 --> 01:13:12.149 AAA follow on phase three to that 01:13:12.160 --> 01:13:14.430 progress . And you will want to brag 01:13:14.439 --> 01:13:17.330 about that progress in the proposal . 01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:19.870 But really , it doesn't put any burden 01:13:19.879 --> 01:13:23.089 on the firm uh to disclose that 01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:25.529 innovation or uh bring the government 01:13:25.540 --> 01:13:27.262 up to speed on it because it's 01:13:27.262 --> 01:13:29.839 proprietary information and it doesn't 01:13:29.850 --> 01:13:32.017 need to deliver it to the government . 01:13:32.330 --> 01:13:35.459 Ok . The only , the only observation I 01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:37.790 would add to , to Dave's uh point and , 01:13:37.799 --> 01:13:40.850 and Paul valid is the uh is the fact 01:13:40.859 --> 01:13:42.970 that the government is probably going 01:13:42.970 --> 01:13:45.192 to look at what was the transfer of the 01:13:45.192 --> 01:13:47.359 data just to make sure that it was all 01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:46.910 accomplished properly . If you're gonna 01:13:46.919 --> 01:13:49.030 be doing it under the under the act , 01:13:49.030 --> 01:13:51.363 you know , as an SB I or uh procurement , 01:13:51.370 --> 01:13:53.648 they want to make sure that , you know , 01:13:53.648 --> 01:13:56.439 it was a clean transfer uh during the 01:13:56.450 --> 01:13:58.672 also during the innovation , you know , 01:13:58.672 --> 01:14:01.770 you can nov a contract and potentially 01:14:01.959 --> 01:14:03.919 the creator of the intellectual 01:14:03.930 --> 01:14:06.720 property could have retained ownership , 01:14:06.729 --> 01:14:09.029 you know , of the uh S pr technology . 01:14:09.040 --> 01:14:11.419 So they'll probably want to take a look 01:14:11.430 --> 01:14:13.597 at what uh the documentation that made 01:14:13.597 --> 01:14:16.220 the transfer over . Thank you . And the 01:14:16.229 --> 01:14:18.589 next two questions , I get a lot . Um 01:14:18.649 --> 01:14:21.009 First one is , are the data rights in 01:14:21.020 --> 01:14:24.779 place the same for ot A contracts 01:14:26.229 --> 01:14:29.640 answer is yes . Data rights don't 01:14:29.649 --> 01:14:31.970 depend on the type or nature of the 01:14:31.979 --> 01:14:34.430 contract . The same data rights clause 01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:37.040 applies . The same legend is used . 01:14:38.979 --> 01:14:41.146 I agree wholeheartedly with Dave . The 01:14:41.146 --> 01:14:43.368 only thing is with an ot A . You're not 01:14:43.368 --> 01:14:45.590 gonna have the D for reference , you're 01:14:45.590 --> 01:14:47.701 gonna have something comparable to it 01:14:47.701 --> 01:14:47.470 as he alludes to it . It's gonna be , 01:14:47.479 --> 01:14:50.200 you know , the sbasb A uh probably 01:14:50.209 --> 01:14:53.490 version of uh the uh the instructions 01:14:53.500 --> 01:14:56.080 and the , and the clause . But uh yes , 01:14:56.089 --> 01:14:58.089 absolutely . That would be the case 01:14:58.089 --> 01:15:01.950 over . OK ? And the next question is 01:15:01.959 --> 01:15:04.459 what rights apply to mixed development 01:15:04.470 --> 01:15:07.560 where Sbir paid only part of the effort 01:15:08.100 --> 01:15:10.640 and the rest was privately funded . Ira 01:15:10.660 --> 01:15:14.270 D example , 60% was paid with super 01:15:14.430 --> 01:15:18.390 funds and 40% was paid by 01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:21.160 Ira funds and the work cannot be 01:15:21.169 --> 01:15:24.779 separated in that 01:15:24.790 --> 01:15:28.160 case , any deliverable to the 01:15:28.169 --> 01:15:31.709 government containing Sbir . Plus other 01:15:31.720 --> 01:15:35.020 information would be marked with Sbir 01:15:35.029 --> 01:15:38.089 data rights legends . However , where 01:15:38.100 --> 01:15:41.290 you have your own proprietary 01:15:41.299 --> 01:15:44.290 information included , even if it's non 01:15:44.299 --> 01:15:47.729 sever , you might want to stack legends 01:15:47.859 --> 01:15:50.439 that has put the Sbir legend up there 01:15:50.450 --> 01:15:52.479 and then put your own company , 01:15:52.490 --> 01:15:55.020 proprietary legend below it , 01:15:55.240 --> 01:15:57.569 indicating to the government that there 01:15:57.580 --> 01:16:01.370 is a mix of data that you are supplying . 01:16:01.700 --> 01:16:05.299 But the Sbir data uh absolutely can't 01:16:05.310 --> 01:16:07.379 be disclosed . And even though it's 01:16:07.390 --> 01:16:09.890 mixed up with other data , um you can't 01:16:09.899 --> 01:16:11.677 disclose the other data without 01:16:11.677 --> 01:16:14.060 disclosing the attached Sbir data . So 01:16:14.069 --> 01:16:17.209 the Sbir Clause has to be put into any 01:16:17.220 --> 01:16:19.450 new contract , any new amendment 01:16:21.060 --> 01:16:23.171 that's from a practical issue . And I 01:16:23.171 --> 01:16:25.750 absolutely agree with that . But , you 01:16:25.759 --> 01:16:27.370 know , when we talk about in 01:16:27.370 --> 01:16:29.537 independent research and development , 01:16:29.537 --> 01:16:31.648 the first thing that popped out of uh 01:16:31.648 --> 01:16:33.870 pops into my head is do you really have 01:16:33.870 --> 01:16:35.926 a IR and D account ? You know , have 01:16:35.926 --> 01:16:38.640 you been really tracking your data and 01:16:38.649 --> 01:16:40.427 your , and the cost that you're 01:16:40.427 --> 01:16:42.427 associating with the development of 01:16:42.427 --> 01:16:44.316 that data ? And if you're not , I 01:16:44.316 --> 01:16:46.538 recommend you do it . I had a company , 01:16:46.538 --> 01:16:48.538 a small business coming in um worst 01:16:48.538 --> 01:16:51.589 story years ago um said , oh , we own 01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:53.711 this data we developed and everything 01:16:53.711 --> 01:16:55.989 else . Then we went to look , you know , 01:16:55.989 --> 01:16:58.100 to price it out actually to negotiate 01:16:58.100 --> 01:17:00.100 it and they didn't have an Ir and D 01:17:00.100 --> 01:17:03.319 account in their accounting system . OK . 01:17:03.509 --> 01:17:05.731 How do , how does one make an assertion 01:17:05.731 --> 01:17:07.842 that you're owning something when you 01:17:07.842 --> 01:17:10.009 don't have the data to back up that uh 01:17:10.009 --> 01:17:12.290 that assertion ? Um that's a thought 01:17:12.299 --> 01:17:15.240 over . So , Tom , how does that get 01:17:15.250 --> 01:17:18.410 policed ? Then if you , if you're 01:17:18.419 --> 01:17:21.229 questioning their assertion . Well , 01:17:21.240 --> 01:17:23.129 there are , there are , there are 01:17:23.129 --> 01:17:25.129 clauses in there that you , you can 01:17:25.129 --> 01:17:27.649 challenge , uh you know , a legend . Um , 01:17:27.660 --> 01:17:30.740 2 27 was it 70 19 , I think , 01:17:31.899 --> 01:17:34.700 uh on certain data and the rest , um 01:17:34.819 --> 01:17:37.152 not that you're going to do a lot of it . 01:17:37.152 --> 01:17:39.339 Uh Let me , let me just take a quick 01:17:39.350 --> 01:17:43.200 look . Uh Yeah , 70 01:17:43.209 --> 01:17:45.320 19 on computer software . And there's 01:17:45.320 --> 01:17:48.410 another clause to , to , to validation , 01:17:48.419 --> 01:17:50.586 restrictive markings on technical data 01:17:50.586 --> 01:17:52.641 and that would be 70 37 . And that's 01:17:52.641 --> 01:17:54.697 probably in the contract that uh has 01:17:54.697 --> 01:17:57.189 been written . And , uh , you know , uh , 01:17:57.479 --> 01:17:59.590 and if you're getting into this whole 01:17:59.590 --> 01:18:02.169 debate about , you know , do you have 01:18:02.180 --> 01:18:04.609 it , don't , you have it , um , you 01:18:04.620 --> 01:18:06.398 know , you come across a lot of 01:18:06.398 --> 01:18:08.564 different data when you're negotiating 01:18:08.564 --> 01:18:08.020 with people , even though it's not sort 01:18:08.029 --> 01:18:10.251 of a cost price data . But , you know , 01:18:10.251 --> 01:18:12.418 sometimes you get into the negotiation 01:18:12.418 --> 01:18:14.585 with them , you get into their , their 01:18:14.585 --> 01:18:16.640 accounting system , uh whether using 01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:18.862 gap or , or , or of course , accounting 01:18:18.862 --> 01:18:21.390 standards . And , you know , if you're 01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:24.140 talking about ownership of data , it's 01:18:24.149 --> 01:18:26.450 going the logical question for the PC O 01:18:26.459 --> 01:18:29.310 to ask is OK . Where's the IRD ? You 01:18:29.319 --> 01:18:32.129 know , I mean , just , just show me now 01:18:32.140 --> 01:18:34.251 the commercial sales , it's something 01:18:34.251 --> 01:18:36.196 else that can take , be taken into 01:18:36.196 --> 01:18:38.307 consideration to discuss ownership of 01:18:38.307 --> 01:18:40.529 data . But , you know , if you're going 01:18:40.529 --> 01:18:42.751 to make the assertion that you're doing 01:18:42.751 --> 01:18:44.807 that internal research document it . 01:18:44.807 --> 01:18:47.084 That's all I'm saying over . Thank you . 01:18:47.319 --> 01:18:50.600 Uh Next question is um a small 01:18:50.609 --> 01:18:54.609 business um whether it's an S TT R 01:18:54.620 --> 01:18:58.149 or Sbir has teamed with the university 01:18:58.160 --> 01:19:00.160 or federal lab as , as one of their 01:19:00.160 --> 01:19:03.319 subs , how does that affect their data 01:19:03.330 --> 01:19:06.839 rights ? The 01:19:07.029 --> 01:19:11.029 use of a subcontractor is m makes 01:19:11.040 --> 01:19:14.720 an important uh imposition on data 01:19:14.729 --> 01:19:18.689 rights for the SB IRS TT R firm , a 01:19:18.700 --> 01:19:21.330 subcontractor of any kind , whether 01:19:21.339 --> 01:19:24.770 it's a FFR DC or a university or even 01:19:24.779 --> 01:19:28.069 another small business owns the 01:19:28.080 --> 01:19:31.209 data that it developed under that 01:19:31.220 --> 01:19:34.580 contract . So as a subcontractor , it 01:19:34.589 --> 01:19:38.299 is developing ownership in data , it 01:19:38.310 --> 01:19:41.419 develops . That's why I caution all 01:19:41.430 --> 01:19:44.470 people that are going to uh that asked 01:19:44.479 --> 01:19:46.701 me about , you know , bringing in a , a 01:19:46.701 --> 01:19:49.839 subcontractor , be very careful about 01:19:49.850 --> 01:19:52.600 not subcontracting 01:19:52.629 --> 01:19:56.620 core uh tasks under 01:19:56.629 --> 01:20:00.629 your contract because you are giving 01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:03.819 up ownership of certain data and will 01:20:03.830 --> 01:20:06.689 eventually have a hole in your 01:20:06.700 --> 01:20:09.479 ownership of the whole product you 01:20:09.490 --> 01:20:12.100 develop because that subcontractor is 01:20:12.109 --> 01:20:14.220 gonna be able to say and universities 01:20:14.220 --> 01:20:16.770 do uh we've got a piece of that and you 01:20:16.779 --> 01:20:20.399 are not allowed to use it . So be very 01:20:20.410 --> 01:20:23.415 careful about subcontracting testing is 01:20:23.424 --> 01:20:27.225 a great uh uh example of something you 01:20:27.234 --> 01:20:30.575 can subcontract out doesn't uh involve 01:20:30.584 --> 01:20:32.584 technical data . And if it involves 01:20:32.584 --> 01:20:34.640 technical data and you pass a test , 01:20:34.640 --> 01:20:37.314 you wanna brag about it anyway . So be 01:20:37.325 --> 01:20:39.455 very careful about subcontracting 01:20:39.464 --> 01:20:42.134 subcontractors own the data they 01:20:42.145 --> 01:20:45.359 develop . OK . 01:20:48.060 --> 01:20:50.490 Um The next question is um 01:20:51.629 --> 01:20:55.319 regards to um asserting 01:20:55.330 --> 01:20:57.810 data rights . Um how do I properly 01:20:57.819 --> 01:21:01.029 assert data rights from a previous Sbir 01:21:01.450 --> 01:21:05.299 development on a current Sbir where the 01:21:05.310 --> 01:21:07.950 technology is different ? Can I assert 01:21:07.959 --> 01:21:10.729 those those data rights in this new S 01:21:10.740 --> 01:21:14.439 pr proposal , data 01:21:14.450 --> 01:21:18.290 rights are protected by each contract ? 01:21:18.729 --> 01:21:21.410 That is your prior contract has an 01:21:21.419 --> 01:21:25.069 expiration period and it protects that 01:21:25.080 --> 01:21:28.500 data and your current 01:21:28.509 --> 01:21:30.890 contract will protect all data 01:21:30.899 --> 01:21:33.569 generated under it . Now , if you use 01:21:33.580 --> 01:21:37.450 SBIR data in your proposal to the 01:21:37.459 --> 01:21:40.689 government do not market as SBIR data 01:21:40.700 --> 01:21:43.629 as I said in my presentation . So you 01:21:43.725 --> 01:21:45.865 really don't have to worry about 01:21:45.875 --> 01:21:49.035 protecting prior contract uh 01:21:49.314 --> 01:21:52.955 data sbir data because that contract 01:21:52.964 --> 01:21:55.044 protects it and your new contract 01:21:55.055 --> 01:21:57.404 protects what you're going to develop . 01:21:57.415 --> 01:22:01.064 So each contract is now independent in 01:22:01.464 --> 01:22:05.415 uh uh protecting Sbir data and you 01:22:05.424 --> 01:22:07.257 don't grandfather it , you don't 01:22:07.257 --> 01:22:09.424 transfer it to the new contract . It's 01:22:09.424 --> 01:22:11.591 all protected under the contract under 01:22:11.591 --> 01:22:13.646 which it was developed . See , I get 01:22:13.646 --> 01:22:16.379 that a lot , Dave um When I review 01:22:16.390 --> 01:22:20.000 phase two proposals from certain 01:22:20.009 --> 01:22:24.009 for , from a lot of uh small businesses 01:22:24.490 --> 01:22:26.810 to where when they assert there's they 01:22:26.819 --> 01:22:29.580 insert a chart that's within the phase 01:22:29.589 --> 01:22:32.540 two that what they're making their 01:22:33.069 --> 01:22:36.509 assertions on and they will list every 01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:38.687 single phase two proposal that they've 01:22:38.687 --> 01:22:40.964 done and that's what they're asserting . 01:22:40.964 --> 01:22:43.209 So my guess is that they're trying to 01:22:43.609 --> 01:22:46.450 extend those data rights on those older 01:22:46.459 --> 01:22:49.029 topics by making assertions 01:22:49.899 --> 01:22:52.930 assertion tables uh are only 01:22:52.939 --> 01:22:56.709 appropriately asking what else other 01:22:56.720 --> 01:23:00.120 than Sbir , are you asking us as the 01:23:00.129 --> 01:23:03.419 government to protect ? That's usually 01:23:03.430 --> 01:23:06.700 a statement of proprietary information 01:23:06.799 --> 01:23:10.149 that was developed outside of an Sbir . 01:23:10.160 --> 01:23:12.216 And they're saying be cautious about 01:23:12.216 --> 01:23:14.327 this , we've got that data and here's 01:23:14.327 --> 01:23:17.080 our assertion to it . You do not really 01:23:17.089 --> 01:23:21.020 include SBIR data in an assertion table 01:23:21.029 --> 01:23:24.330 because it's asking for other uh 01:23:24.339 --> 01:23:27.959 data to be protected . So it's uh 01:23:27.970 --> 01:23:30.950 not really , how shall I say not Kosher 01:23:30.959 --> 01:23:34.509 to uh put Sbir data in those uh 01:23:34.520 --> 01:23:36.687 assertion tabless , even though I know 01:23:36.687 --> 01:23:38.290 a lot of firms do , right ? 01:23:41.060 --> 01:23:43.729 Um Let's see , this one , I get uh this 01:23:43.740 --> 01:23:46.790 one I get asked a lot . Um and they're 01:23:46.799 --> 01:23:49.240 looking for a simplified explanation or 01:23:49.250 --> 01:23:52.560 resources . Would you recommend for a 01:23:52.569 --> 01:23:55.229 contracting officer explaining Sbir 01:23:55.240 --> 01:23:57.890 data rights to a program office wanting 01:23:57.899 --> 01:24:01.569 to award under a phase three ? How 01:24:01.580 --> 01:24:04.149 would you explain it to them to help 01:24:04.160 --> 01:24:06.382 the program office understand that they 01:24:06.382 --> 01:24:08.382 are not going to have the same data 01:24:08.382 --> 01:24:10.810 rights . They would under a competitive 01:24:10.819 --> 01:24:13.490 contract using different clauses . They 01:24:13.500 --> 01:24:16.640 have repeatedly run into an issue where 01:24:16.649 --> 01:24:18.649 the program office states that they 01:24:18.649 --> 01:24:22.270 understand and sign off on the eval 01:24:22.689 --> 01:24:25.470 and then basically still want them to 01:24:25.479 --> 01:24:29.379 give up their data . Yes . Um 01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:34.240 That really brings up a a fact 01:24:34.250 --> 01:24:38.220 and that is that not all contracting 01:24:38.229 --> 01:24:41.620 people that is PC OS uh 01:24:42.609 --> 01:24:44.990 their , their assistants , program 01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:48.799 managers understand Sbir that puts 01:24:48.810 --> 01:24:52.000 the Sbir firm in the position of being 01:24:52.009 --> 01:24:54.370 a teacher . The first point of 01:24:54.379 --> 01:24:57.720 reference is section four C of the SB A 01:24:57.729 --> 01:25:00.339 directive and you should direct them to 01:25:00.350 --> 01:25:02.419 it . If they read down four C , they 01:25:02.430 --> 01:25:04.486 will see a lot of the rights that we 01:25:04.486 --> 01:25:07.620 talked about here all in uh 01:25:07.629 --> 01:25:11.140 Sbir language and stated 01:25:11.149 --> 01:25:14.879 simply , you can probably send them a 01:25:14.890 --> 01:25:17.740 copy of this presentation which puts a 01:25:17.750 --> 01:25:21.520 lot of that language into uh words 01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:24.000 and answers a lot of their questions . 01:25:24.410 --> 01:25:28.160 And third , you can resort to the SB A 01:25:28.330 --> 01:25:32.270 to uh uh have them confer with 01:25:32.279 --> 01:25:34.959 SB A about questions they have about SB 01:25:34.970 --> 01:25:38.020 IRS B A is always willing to talk to 01:25:38.029 --> 01:25:41.379 agencies and educate them to Sbir . So 01:25:41.549 --> 01:25:43.771 the good news is you have a person that 01:25:43.771 --> 01:25:46.560 wants to be educated and those are 01:25:46.569 --> 01:25:49.859 sources for educating them . The bad 01:25:49.870 --> 01:25:52.037 news is the ones that don't want to be 01:25:52.037 --> 01:25:54.850 educated at all and want unrestricted 01:25:54.859 --> 01:25:58.060 rights even though they issued an Sbir 01:25:58.069 --> 01:26:01.720 contract . And uh all you can do is 01:26:01.729 --> 01:26:04.589 try and work with them and get them to 01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:08.450 understand , right ? You know , 01:26:08.459 --> 01:26:10.580 you know , Matt , I've had those 01:26:10.589 --> 01:26:13.569 conversations with P MS and 01:26:14.930 --> 01:26:16.874 Dave is right . You know , if , if 01:26:16.874 --> 01:26:19.041 they're willing to listen , if they're 01:26:19.041 --> 01:26:21.263 willing to learn , there's a tremendous 01:26:21.263 --> 01:26:23.374 amount of resources available to them 01:26:23.374 --> 01:26:25.680 uh to be able to , to understand what 01:26:25.689 --> 01:26:27.800 the program is about and what they'll 01:26:27.800 --> 01:26:29.967 receive out of the program . Sometimes 01:26:29.967 --> 01:26:32.133 I wonder , you know , people that talk 01:26:32.133 --> 01:26:33.911 to me about like , hey , I want 01:26:33.911 --> 01:26:33.509 unlimited rights and you're sitting 01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.576 there going , wait a minute , you're 01:26:35.576 --> 01:26:37.631 gonna get government purpose license 01:26:37.631 --> 01:26:37.220 rights . You're gonna be able to do the 01:26:37.229 --> 01:26:39.390 same thing that you needed to do . So 01:26:39.609 --> 01:26:42.560 why are you , why are you so camped out 01:26:42.569 --> 01:26:46.370 on wanting unlimited ? Right ? Um And 01:26:46.379 --> 01:26:48.689 as , as Dave pointed out and I agree , 01:26:48.750 --> 01:26:51.520 sbaofbp offices , more business 01:26:51.529 --> 01:26:53.696 programs , you know , they have the uh 01:26:53.696 --> 01:26:55.751 apex Accelerators who used to be the 01:26:55.751 --> 01:26:58.479 form formerly used to be the P they've 01:26:58.490 --> 01:27:00.649 been developing training materials in 01:27:00.660 --> 01:27:02.771 this particular area , you know , for 01:27:02.771 --> 01:27:04.827 all of uh for all of the , the , the 01:27:04.827 --> 01:27:07.319 contractors and it , it's the same 01:27:07.330 --> 01:27:09.497 message that's going to get back to uh 01:27:09.497 --> 01:27:12.990 the PC O and Dave is right . Not all PC 01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:16.220 OS understand uh the program , the way 01:27:16.229 --> 01:27:18.549 they do though , I would offer that 01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:21.910 many of the component command program 01:27:21.919 --> 01:27:24.120 offices have been working diligently 01:27:24.580 --> 01:27:26.890 with their PC OS to get them educated 01:27:26.899 --> 01:27:28.580 so that they understand the 01:27:28.589 --> 01:27:30.756 implications of what they do when they 01:27:30.756 --> 01:27:34.120 are uh in the throes of executing the 01:27:34.129 --> 01:27:36.339 program and hopefully getting 01:27:36.350 --> 01:27:38.572 contractors and the government to phase 01:27:38.572 --> 01:27:41.950 three over , I think . And we have time 01:27:41.959 --> 01:27:45.790 for one last question . Um In the past , 01:27:45.799 --> 01:27:48.640 Dave , you have stated the SBR policy 01:27:48.649 --> 01:27:50.871 directive has the full force and effect 01:27:50.871 --> 01:27:53.259 of the law . Could you please provide 01:27:53.270 --> 01:27:55.580 the legal basis behind that statement ? 01:27:55.770 --> 01:27:58.009 Since numerous federal contracting 01:27:58.020 --> 01:28:00.720 officers believe they do not have to 01:28:00.729 --> 01:28:03.359 follow what is written in the SB a 01:28:03.370 --> 01:28:07.319 policy directive . Yes . The uh 01:28:08.069 --> 01:28:10.359 the answer for that is what I stated in 01:28:10.370 --> 01:28:13.339 the presentation that is the current 01:28:13.549 --> 01:28:17.089 policy directive was reissued pursuant 01:28:17.100 --> 01:28:20.310 to notice and comment rulemaking in uh 01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:23.759 2019 and became effective on May 2nd of 01:28:23.770 --> 01:28:26.350 that date and notice and comment 01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:28.879 rulemaking is the way that an agency 01:28:28.890 --> 01:28:31.729 like SB A can issue a binding 01:28:31.740 --> 01:28:34.799 regulation and that was done . So it's 01:28:34.810 --> 01:28:37.750 important for the contracting officer 01:28:37.759 --> 01:28:40.049 or a person that's inquiring to 01:28:40.060 --> 01:28:42.029 understand what notice and comment 01:28:42.040 --> 01:28:43.929 rulemaking is about . And they're 01:28:43.929 --> 01:28:45.873 taught that in their training . So 01:28:45.873 --> 01:28:47.596 there's no excuse for them not 01:28:47.596 --> 01:28:49.818 understanding that . Now , if they have 01:28:49.818 --> 01:28:51.929 any doubt about what you said to that 01:28:51.929 --> 01:28:53.984 effect , they can call SB A and they 01:28:53.984 --> 01:28:56.049 can ask the question is the policy 01:28:56.060 --> 01:28:57.729 directive binding , a binding 01:28:57.740 --> 01:29:00.899 regulation . And SB A will shout yes 01:29:00.910 --> 01:29:04.910 and hang up . So it's uh it's a 01:29:04.919 --> 01:29:08.220 fact of understanding that this uh 01:29:08.229 --> 01:29:11.279 guidance that SB A has is a 01:29:11.290 --> 01:29:14.740 binding regulation even though it has 01:29:14.750 --> 01:29:18.029 the word policy in its title . And that 01:29:18.040 --> 01:29:20.959 dates back to 1982 . And that 01:29:20.970 --> 01:29:23.790 misleads , I think a lot of contracting 01:29:23.799 --> 01:29:26.819 officers uh and their supporting 01:29:26.830 --> 01:29:28.886 personnel into thinking that this is 01:29:28.886 --> 01:29:31.660 only policy and not a regulation , a 01:29:31.669 --> 01:29:33.180 binding regulation . 01:29:36.350 --> 01:29:39.620 OK . Well , just to be respectful of 01:29:39.629 --> 01:29:41.629 everyone's time , we are 90 minutes 01:29:41.629 --> 01:29:44.779 into the uh webinar . I'm sorry , I 01:29:44.790 --> 01:29:46.846 didn't get through all the questions 01:29:46.846 --> 01:29:49.200 again . We will post them on our site 01:29:49.209 --> 01:29:51.320 under the fact section . We'll try to 01:29:51.320 --> 01:29:53.487 go to them all . I know that we've had 01:29:53.487 --> 01:29:55.910 a lot of questions posted since . Um 01:29:55.990 --> 01:29:58.890 Again , I want to thank Dave and Tom 01:29:58.899 --> 01:30:01.819 for um an excellent job and most 01:30:01.830 --> 01:30:05.310 informative Brief . Um II , I can't 01:30:05.319 --> 01:30:07.652 thank you enough for your expertise and , 01:30:07.652 --> 01:30:11.140 and , and answering questions and 01:30:11.459 --> 01:30:15.069 giving all the expert advice . Um 01:30:15.339 --> 01:30:18.500 And I wanna thank the team , um Ian 01:30:18.509 --> 01:30:22.310 Ashley Carri Maria for actually pull 01:30:22.319 --> 01:30:25.669 pulling this off . Um This was great . 01:30:25.680 --> 01:30:29.580 I look forward to our next session . Um 01:30:30.220 --> 01:30:31.998 and we'll , we'll post that out 01:30:31.998 --> 01:30:34.109 probably in a couple of months , what 01:30:34.109 --> 01:30:36.276 the next two segments will uh be . But 01:30:36.276 --> 01:30:39.049 again , um special thanks to Dave and 01:30:39.060 --> 01:30:42.560 Tom for your expert advice and thank 01:30:42.569 --> 01:30:44.736 you everyone for taking time out to uh 01:30:44.736 --> 01:30:45.830 join the webinar . 01:30:52.479 --> 01:30:54.870 Oh , and also , um if you would please , 01:30:54.879 --> 01:30:57.569 if you didn't already log off , um Can 01:30:57.580 --> 01:31:00.259 you please do the survey ? That's how 01:31:00.270 --> 01:31:03.649 we learn and we can make it better . So , 01:31:03.660 --> 01:31:04.660 thank you , 01:31:11.689 --> 01:31:15.140 Dave . Take care . Good to be with you . 01:31:15.149 --> 01:31:16.350 Bye everyone .